Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

[menageriekeeper]

I like the way you write and just from your name I get the idea you get to the point because you don't have a lot of free time.

In view of your above statement, what do you make of the following when Stephen was preaching to a gathering of Jewish leaders?

Acts 7:51 (King James Version)
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Thank you.

I see this through the perspective of the events that had happened just prior: The renting of the veil. These verses give us context:

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I believe Stephen is telling this group of Jews that God’s Spirit/presence/Holy Ghost left the temple because the Jewish people continued to resist the witness of the prophets who presented to them the Word of God and even resisted the very presence of the Holy Spirit in their midst.

Before this time (the renting of the veil) all Jewish people were supposed to be believers and the Spirit dwelled in their midst albeit behind the veil. The Spirit still spoke through the prophets and not directly to any other individual as He does to us now. If even a believer stepped past the veil without being properly cleansed, he died immediately. Unlike today, when the Spirit dwells within us and brings us peace and guidance.

Basically what Stephan was implying was that the Holy Spirit found a better place to live!

I think we should consider the Bible says one is saved by believing the word, and one must first hear the word; however it does not say one must hear the word from a believer.
It is the message that makes the difference, not the messenger.
I have no doubt a person can be saved by hearing the word even if the word comes from an unsaved preacher.

I have no doubt either.

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”

Christ is the Word, the drawing of man still belongs to Him.

Remember, the original question to me was “Do you believe Holy Spirit must draw men to God and convict them of sin?” I find that even after the time I have spent in study these past few days that I still don’t. I believe that Christ is the one who convicts of sin and draws man to him. Might still be wrong, but this is where I am at the moment.

IMO the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of the Godhead on earth today.

Again I agree. But how does He exist on earth today? I find that He exists only within believers. But I’m open to contradicting opinions if they are backed up by scripture.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Hmmm, I'm thinking it was CanadyJD who asked me this question. Where'd he go? I'd like his input too.

 

[canadyjd]

Hmmm, I'm thinking it was CanadyJD who asked me this question. Where'd he go? I'd like his input too.

Sorry, I've been busy.

Let's see.... you stated that only Jesus draws men.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out...."

God the Father choses those who will come to Christ. Jesus assures us that each and every one that has been given by the Father will come to Him for salvation.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; ...."

God the Father draws each and every one of those He has chosen to faith in Jesus, and God the Father does not draw anyone other than those He has chosen.

John 6:65 "....For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

So, I think you may be making too much of a difference within the Godhead by saying that only Jesus draws people.

peace to youraying:

 

[menageriekeeper]

So, I think you may be making too much of a difference within the Godhead by saying that only Jesus draws people.

Possibly. At least between Christ and the Father who seem to me to have a closer relationship than the one between either of them and the Holy Spirit. But, you asked about the drawing of the Holy Spirit and that is what I have been exploring. So with that particular in mind, your above scriptures don't seem to apply EXCEPT to the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity.

I guess the question now becomes, how much do each aspect of the Godhead share with each other? Can we apply the attributes of Christ, directly to the Holy Spirit? and if that is the case, why then did Christ say He had to go before the Holy Spirit could come?

 

[Winman]

God the Father draws each and every one of those He has chosen to faith in Jesus, and God the Father does not draw anyone other than those He has chosen.

John 6:65 "....For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

This is error. Jesus said he would draw all men to him, even those who refuse to obey and come. Only those who obey and come are chosen.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The scriptures clearly show many men are called (drawn) who refuse to come.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

These verses are very easy to understand. Many men are called (drawn) but some refuse to come.

And it is not those who are chosen that come, you state exactly the reverse of what scripture teaches. The scriptures show that those who come are chosen.

Matt 12:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Your doctrine is the exact opposite of what scripture teaches. Those who obeyed God's invitation and came to the wedding with the wedding garment (representing Jesus's righteousness imputed to those who believe on him) were chosen.

 

[canadyjd]

Possibly. At least between Christ and the Father who seem to me to have a closer relationship than the one between either of them and the Holy Spirit.

Yikes!! Very dangerous thinking, IMHO. God exists in perfect fellowship within the Godhead. It is wrong to believe God the Father and God the Son have "a closer relationship" than either have with God Holy Spirit.

But, you asked about the drawing of the Holy Spirit and that is what I have been exploring......I guess the question now becomes, how much do each aspect of the Godhead share with each other? Can we apply the attributes of Christ, directly to the Holy Spirit? and if that is the case, why then did Christ say He had to go before the Holy Spirit could come?

It has been awhile, but I think you are speaking of what scholars call the "economy" of the Godhead. That is, what is the role of each person within the Godhead?

First, you mustn't ever so divide the Godhead in any way that undermines the fundamental unity of God. There is no division of thought or purpose, but there is a division of roles.

You must also avoid the error of modalism, which denies the Trinity. That is, that God exists as one person, but that He appears to us in different "modes" at various times. He appeared as "Father" in the O.T. He appeared as "Son", during the time of Christ. He now appears as "Holy Spirit". This is error and must be avoided.

That said, if I remember correctly, God the Father made the plan of redemption. God the Son did the will of the Father and carried out the plan of redemption by dying on the cross. God Holy Spirit brings the plan of redemption to completion by bringing the elect to salvation. God Holy Spirit convicts of sin, teaches the truth of Jesus Christ, and keeps us by His indwelling presence for eternal life in heaven.

There is, obviously, much more to it than that, but that is my explanation in brief. I hope it helps.

peace to youraying:

 

[menageriekeeper]

Yikes!! Very dangerous thinking, IMHO. God exists in perfect fellowship within the Godhead. It is wrong to believe God the Father and God the Son have "a closer relationship" than either have with God Holy Spirit.

Ummm, I used the word closer but perhaps another word might have been a better choice. Unfortunately you are stuck with my dyslexic brain that often won't allow me to come up with better synonyms. What I mean is that the Bible speaks more often of the relationship between Christ and the Father than it does of the relationship between either of those too and the Holy Spirit. I didn't mean to imply that there was any disunity within the God head.

First, you mustn't ever so divide the Godhead in any way that undermines the fundamental unity of God. There is no division of thought or purpose, but there is a division of roles.

And in this division of roles that even you can see, I have found that it is Christ who draws man and not the Holy Spirit. If there is some overlap in those roles in the NT, I have yet to discover clear evidence of it. Hence the new question, how much do the roles of the Godhead overlap?

I understand and reject both modalism and oneness theology(which technically I suppose is a variant of modalism). They would have God talking to Himself at the baptism of Christ and that would contradict the clear nature of God.

 

[Benjamin]

Upon examining the role of Trinity, there is one God and one Mediator also. We could not rejoice that there is a God without the Mediator which stands before God and men, to reconcile men to God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

 

[Winman]

Upon examining the role of Trinity, there is one God and one Mediator also. We could not rejoice that there is a God without the Mediator which stands before God and men, to reconcile men to God.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

This verse contradicts Calvinism. In Calvinism it is God the Father who is the mediator between Jesus and the sinner. Calvinism teaches that God the Father elects a person unconditionally before the foundation of the world and then gives that person to Christ.

But Jesus said no man can come to the Father but by him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[canadyjd]

...And in this division of roles that even you can see, I have found that it is Christ who draws man and not the Holy Spirit. If there is some overlap in those roles in the NT, I have yet to discover clear evidence of it. Hence the new question, how much do the roles of the Godhead overlap?

Jesus clearly stated that He was going back to the Father. He also stated that He would send (in another place Jesus tells us the Father sends the Spirit) the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ.

Hence, IMHO, Holy Spirit is now at work in the world to bring about the plan of God including the salvation of the elect. Jesus remains at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us as mediator.

peace to youraying:

 

[Benjamin]

This verse contradicts Calvinism. In Calvinism it is God the Father who is the mediator between Jesus and the sinner. Calvinism teaches that God the Father elects a person unconditionally before the foundation of the world and then gives that person to Christ.

But Jesus said no man can come to the Father but by him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yes, I know, however the true grace of God is more inclusive than this “doctrine of grace”, which proclaims “predestined selective grace”, because this promise of intercession is in Christ, made before the foundation; this promise and mediation is in and through Christ and is/should be clearly seen as extending to all: (1 Timothy 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

…is proved by: (1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

... speaking of this very intercession: (1 Timothy 2:1) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

…which relates directly back to: (1 Timothy 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

…therefore all men are to apply to this Mediator, “who gave Himself for all”.

 

[canadyjd]

This is error. Jesus said he would draw all men to him, even those who refuse to obey and come. Only those who obey and come are chosen.

I noticed you ignored, as usual, the scripture understand discussion.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me....."

From this verse we learn:

1. God the Father "gives" some people to Jesus.
2. Those that God the Father "gives" to Jesus "shall come" to Him.

That is a 100% of the people of whom Jesus is speaking. It does not include "even those that refuse to obey and come", because everyone that God gives to Jesus "shall come" to Jesus. 100%. That is not "error". That is truth.

That truth is reaffirmed in:

John 6:39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing...."

Jesus then links the "God the Father giving..." with God the Father "drawing".

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him;..."

John 6:65 "....For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

So, from these verses we see:

1. God the Father "gives" specific people to Jesus.
2. God the Father "draws" those very same people to Jesus.
3. Every single one of those that are given and draw "shall come" to Jesus.
4. Only those to whom it has been "granted" by the Father to come to Jesus, shall come to Jesus. No one else is able to come to Jesus, because it has not been "granted" to them from the Father to come to Jesus.

Your doctrine is the exact opposite of what scripture teaches.

In your mind, everyone that disagrees with you on any aspect of scripture believes the "exact opposite" of scripture.

And yet, you can never address the passages of scripture in the debate, but simply vomit out the same old nonsense about "your doctrine is the exact opposite of what scripture teaches."

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

I noticed you ignored, as usual, the scripture understand discussion.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me....."

From this verse we learn:

1. God the Father "gives" some people to Jesus.
2. Those that God the Father "gives" to Jesus "shall come" to Him.

And I notice you ignored verse 45 where Jesus explains exactly how the Father gives believers to Jesus.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does Jesus say it is those whom God elected before the foundation of the world that come to Jesus? No, it says every man that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father comes to Jesus.

Now, how do we hear and learn from the Father? Did you hear a voice from heaven or see a vision? No, you learned just like me, from God's word the scriptures. No man can come to Jesus without the scriptures. Without the scriptures you would have never heard of Jesus. And Paul shows this in Romans.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul asks a very sensible question here, how can anybody possibly believe on Jesus if they have never heard of him?

Who provided the scriptures? God the Father. So, if anybody comes to Christ, it is because he gave the scriptures to us.

I notice Calvinists like to overlook verse 45 in this chapter.

 

[canadyjd]

And I notice you ignored verse 45 where Jesus explains exactly how the Father gives believers to Jesus.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. ...Now, how do we hear and learn from the Father? Did you hear a voice from heaven or see a vision? No, you learned just like me, from God's word the scriptures. No man can come to Jesus without the scriptures. Without the scriptures you would have never heard of Jesus....

The scriptures says so one can come unless it has been granted to him by God the Father.

I Cor. 2:10 "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God."

We hear and learn from Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

The scriptures says so one can come unless it has been granted to him by God the Father.

Exactly. It was given to you by God the Father. If God did not give you the scriptures, you would not have known about Jesus and could not have placed your faith in him.

OK, hypothetically imagine that there were no scriptures now nor ever were. Would you know about Adam and Eve? Would you know about Noah?

The truth is, you might know about them. Perhaps these stories would be handed down orally for awhile, and then a person would write it down. But you know how stories like this change. One evidence of this is the many flood myths. It is a fact that over 200 ancient civilizations have stories about a great flood that destroyed the earth, and usually tell of one man and his family and animals surviving on a boat. But the story has been perverted by many.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth

So, perhaps you and I would know of Adam and Eve and Noah, although I doubt these stories would be very reliable, certainly not reliable enough to stake your eternal soul on. Wouldn't you agree?

The reason you and I know about Jesus and how he died on the cross for us is because God spoke through prophets and recorded his word. And I believe he has provided an accurate account we can fully trust and rely on.

Jesus said it plainly. Those who have heard and learned from the Father come to him. If God did not provide his word, you, nor I, nor anyone else would be able to hear his word and learn from it. So it was absolutely given to us by God the Father.

But it is not how you teach. You believe God elected you outside of Christ before the foundation of the world and then gave you to Jesus. I could site (and have) many Calvinists who say just that. What? did God hold classes with you way back then and teach you about Jesus? Is that when you heard and learned from the Father? You must have if your doctrine is true, because Jesus said "every man" who hath heard, and hath learned from the Father comes to him.

I believe in Jesus, but I sure don't remember those classes way back before the foundation of the world.

Do you?

 

[canadyjd]

Exactly. It was given to you by God the Father. If God did not give you the scriptures, you would not have known about Jesus and could not have placed your faith in him.

The passage didn't say it "was given to you". It says no one can come to Jesus unless it is "granted" to him by the Father.

You are taking a passage which speaks of an individual selection by God, and the specific privilege "granted" to that person to come to Jesus, and transform it into a general "giving' of scripture. You simply don't understand what the passage is saying.

The reason you and I know about Jesus and how he died on the cross for us is because God spoke through prophets and recorded his word. And I believe he has provided an accurate account we can fully trust and rely on.

Again, you simply ignore the passage under discussion.

I Cor. 2:10 "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

peace to youraying: