Any such thing as Satan's music?

Like Mike pointed out, this is our point. I brought up the Third Reich, because "associations" is one of the big charges against music styles, and just like the rhythm and drumming could be used for evil, so could the marching. This in itself does not necessarily make the music itself evil, even though, certain elements of the music might go along with the evil being promoted (i.e. voodoo and sensuality for the rhythmic drumming, and evil war for the marching); thus acknowledging that music is not really "neutral". But if one style can be removed from the evil it was once used for, then so can this other.
</font>[/QUOTE]Firstly, i must say that you and Mike do not argue from the same presupposition. You believe that music is not neutral, (as do I) whereas, Mike doesn't. And, you use your mental faculties. It is much more of a pleasure engaging with you in a conversation.

I have argued from two points. 1 is that we should abstain from appearances of evil. 2 is that music can have a cause/ effect relationship with people.
I hope to show you that i have not disproved myself even with your example of the Third Reich.

With reference to the Third Reich:
1) When one thinks of Waltz or Marching music, one does not think of the Third Reich (TR). Or vice versa. No one, when thinking of the TR will think of classical music or marching music.

However, when one thinks of Rock n ROll, one thinks of drugs, sex, alchol, loose living etc. etc.

therefore, we are to abstain from rock n roll.

2)with regard to the TR, again i ask, surely Hitler did not use Classical music to incite violence or all those devilish atrocities that the TR committed?

Good, godly music cannot do that.

I come back to the cause/ effect relationship.

He may have used the marching music to stir patriotic feelings among his soldiers, encourage unity and conformity. That in itself is good. What the soldiers went on to do is unrelated to the marching music.

ungodly music, like the afore mentioned drumming is trance inducing. Without the drumming the person would not be able to go into a trance.
(And btw, God wants us always to be sober as in in control of our being and not give it up to other "forces".)

Thanks.

 

People who watched their loved ones being thrown into an oven, perhaps while the music was being played, or at least that was the music listend to by that society, do have the association. Ask older Jews who escaped the Holocaust, or perhaps even SS officials who had repented and are ashamed. None of us today may think of it because we are far removed from this, so it doesn't have the same association. We look at how nice our society was in the past (compared to those awful jungle barbarians), and then see how it all blew up half a century ago at the same time that "jungle" influenced rock&roll took root, and therefore associate that with evil. But I too associate the old style to a certain extent with evil, because people even in this society did awful things to others over the centuries while listening to classical and traditional hymns and also taking pride in how "superior" they were. The children of fundamentalists have the biggest negative association and became many of the CCM and even secular rock stars, because their parents dragged them to chuch every week, where they sang this stuff that sounded like an endless funeral march (as if there was to be no joy in the Christian life), claiming this was the "godly music", then the people practiced hatred of others, overbearing overdominance, too mnay rules, most of them unbiblical, and to top it off the authorities, from pastors on down often had lives full of sin themselves; sometimes the very sexual immorality they blasted in the rest of the world, and often carnal anger, pride, etc. All of this gives people a negative association of the "traditional" culture including the music used to cover it all up behind a veneer of "civility".

The whole problem here is that in trying to eliminate nontraditional music, critics have pasted together several, almost exclusive lines of reasoning. First they say it's an "appearance of evil (associations)", but then no, that isn't really enough; people say they don't associate it with evil; so they then try to prove it is universally bad, by claiming it has negative effects. I'm answering the "associations" argument, and you're thinking of cause and effect. So no, "good music" did not cause the evil it may have been used for, but this other style did. But then you have a double standard. Still, people point out that it has no negative effect, and you can't prove it, but then the argument becomes "you're just more interested in what is allowed rather than pleasing God". But then we're back to determining what exactly pleases or displeases God (as in the "What is my Sin" thread).
It's this mish-mosh of arguments that causes so much confusion and hinders any kind of resolution or at least understanding. I believe it is to cover up the holes in the critic's premise, so they can always have some kind of answer to fall back on.

People do go into trances without drums (New Age/Eastern mysticism, and I'm sure the Druids, Transylvania and many other European occult religions did as well). And the people who listen to music with drums today are not all going into trances. Once again, just because some people once used it wrong, it becomes all wrong universally. As for its "association", while a certain segment of society, looking down on the "barbarians" has trumped up this negative image of tribal worship and regurgitated it to public consiousness (which of course would forever stain it, but itself is a highly questioable motive), many people no longer view this as a totally bad association, plus once again, is all of the beats they listen to really that much resemblant of voodoo worship? It's critics who keep shouting "That 2&4 accented beat and syncopation is from the jungle, and they used it for witchcraft", but those two things by themselves do not sound like "the jungle" to me and most others, so we're not going to just chuck all of it and listen only to what these critics (as questionable as their agendas are) say is good. From a footnote on my page:

This is why people's concerns about the music are not taken seriously

[ March 11, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

sigh, Eric. You've clouded out my points with much disputings. If you took my few sentences at face value, it is perfect sense.

Of course, certain songs will speak differently to different people. There may be a certain song that is meaningless to you but completely meaningful and emotional to me because of something that happened in my life. Those are special isolated cases. Surely God is talking about the obvious things, not the isolated things. The principle still holds.

Rock music is associated with drugs, illict sex, alchol, loose living. Even the other way around, the association stands.
Therefore, we are to abstain from it.

I'd like to bow out now, if you don't mind.
Thanks.

 

This is because when kids were revolting from the old societal order, with all its restrictions, their whole mindset was "whatever feels good". So they did drugs, sex, drunkenness, and whatever else felt good to them. so which music would they use? The uptight old traditional style (which had plenty of secular songs, such as "drink to Me only With thine Eyes, the national anthems, etc)? No, they used something that felt good to them, and the rock style came in handy for that. combined with suggestive lyrics and then the abused substances, it could help promote sex. Blacks who did not have as many of the sexual hangups had been using similar rhythms for years, and called it "rock and roll" named after having sex in the back of a car. This is why rock&roll came to be assocated with those things. But this still is only a use of it that was sinful. just like sugar is delightful, but misuse of it is harmful, so a "creature of id" as they are called may overindulge in sugar and be fat and unhealthy. But we don't then say sugar is "unholy" or has such a "bad association" we must shun it to avoid an "appearance of evil". That a person has witnessed all those sins and it appears so evil to him means that this is his personal association, and he should avoid it. Others should respect his convictions and not play it around him or force it into a particular church congregation. Yes, the younger crowd disobeyed here. But that does not mean it is universally bad, and the "weak" person cannot force his convictions on others as some universal abhorance of God.

 

what i believe is that the MUSIC is not satanic....the lyrics can be...and most of the people are not..now some are and they will admitt it//but just because they sing the type of music doesnt make them satanic