Apostasy

[Dr. Walter]

Dr. Walter. What is the consequence of regenerate Christians like David who commit murder and adultery but unlike David do not repent of it? What happens in the midst of their murder or adultery they die? What then?

Your question assumes that both are regenerate and that is not an assumption you can make because you are in no position to determine the INWARD state of any man. That is why I take God's word concerning the inward state of those who openly apostatize or turn "anti-Christ" (I Jn. 2:19) as only God is in the position to see the INWARD condition of any man.

You have the same problem if a true Christian got into a fight with his wife and lost his anger and went out got into car and drove furiously away and got killed in a car accident. There was no repentance before death. What happened to him?

The major problem with your question is the assumption that salvation is ultimately based upon works. If you can lose your salvation by "evil" works that means it must be at least maintained by "good" works or else that is what you have - "evil" works.

Another problem with your question is that it is hypothetical without any actual personal application. David went a long time before repenting. In fact, he did not repent until God intervened and sent Nathan to rebuke him. The Bible promises that God will chasten EVERY SINGLE ONE of His true children and the only ones that do not receive chastening for sin are ILLIGITIMATE children - false beleivers. In a real life scenario or application, how much time can a true beleiver remain in a unrepentant state before God sends a "Nathan" or "troubles" to rebuke his child? Two weeks? Two months? It appears that David went for some time. Can physical death be ultimate chastening for an unrepentant child of God?

Psalm 32 reveals the INWARD STATE of a regenerate man when in an unrepentant condition. However, those who could only see the EXTERNAL David would have no idea of what was really going on inside. God has promised NEVER to leave or forsake His people and one evidence of that is INTERNAL agony and misery when they are living in sin. God never lets his people get away with sin. There are always consequences, many of which, are not apparent to the observer.

In other words, we are not in a position we can actually DETERMINE the inward state. We make our judgements based solely upon what we see and hear. Sometimes our assessments can be completely wrong.

For example, Amy's husband may be in a TEMPORARY state as was David as we don't know the outcome yet. If he was actually regenerated and has gone through great tribulations to the point that he has given up and doubted his own salvation that is one thing. On the other hand, if he has openly repudiated Christ as the Savior or repudiated the existence of God and returned to a worse state than before his professed conversion than that is quite another thing. In any case, IF he has turned decidedly "anti-Christ" or against Christ" then I Jn. 2:19 is God's explanation from his vantage point. I will take God's view point rather than speculate hypothetically about something that has no factual basis.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dear Amy,

I know this must be a very difficult and heart breaking time in your life as your very heart is entwined with your husband and his hurts and pains.

However, God has not vacated His throne. He still rules over the circumstances of life and will eventually work all things for the good of His people.

If your husband is a true child of God, there are things going on inside of him that you may not realize. No true child of God can sin and get away with it. There will be inward evidence of God's chastening hand upon his soul even in his rebellion:

Psa. 32:3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.

Some evidence that a person is a true child of God while living in sin will be they are not at peace with themselves and others. There will be inward turmoil. On the other hand, if a person can openly turn against Christ, against God, return to their former life of sin and be happy then according to hebrews 12:6-8 that person was never a true child of God as no true child of God can escape chastisment for their sins.

I went through a temporary state like this several years ago. Everything in my life was going wrong. I had been faithful and yet everything fell apart and even those things that seemingly God would never permit occurred. The details and the absolute confusion I experienced I can still remember. I sat down on the couch one day and verbally said "that is it, I quit, I am through." However, God was gracious and shortly provided me an explanation of my circumstances that answered every single detail that had complexed me. The lesson I learned was that God had been in control of every detail that confused and disheartened me all along. Through the years I have experienced similar negative circumstances, and it has been that initial experience and revelation of that situation years past that kept me going through these circumstances in spite of the fact I could not see what or why God was allowing things to happen.

The story is not over with your husband. If he was truly a child of God he still is and the evidence in this situation will be signs of inward misery, lack of peace and joy and/or circumstantial difficulties making life an uphill battle. This is the promise of God for all his disobedient children. This is the time to commit yourself to fasting and prayer in his behalf and to love him as you never have loved him before. Then wait upon the Lord.

If his conversion was merely a reformation and not a true inward recreation by God, then this is also the time to commit yourself to fasting and prayer in his behalf and to love him as you have never loved him before.

 

[Dr. Walter]

2 Tim. 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is possible for real saved people to have their faith overthrown by false teachers as well as circumstances after the nature of Job's. I have known many faithful saints when entering into their later years lose the ability to control their mind due to sickness and old age infirmaties and curse and act ungodly. Family members are shocked and don't know what to think of their dear old godly mother, father, brother or sister acting like this.

Did they lose their salvation? No! It must be remembered that the Christian life is a life of constant battle over control of the mind (2 Cor. 10:5) and therefore it is a committed conscious assertion to resist and reject the "old man" within us and temptations outside us. When a person gets old and senile they lose the ability to fight this conscious battle and therefore their old nature dominates. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his - even when they do not know or lost the capability of knowing altogether.

The mind can be affected by sickness, age and lose the ability to remember, function or control the body or the words and actions of the body.

In the context, it seems that these false teachers had been teaching that the resurrection was past and overthrew the faith of some, convinced they had missed the resurrection. Our minds can be messed with my false teachers. Indeed, our minds can be messed with by godly true teachers who are not right in EVERYTHING they believe and teach and so lead others astray unintentionally. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his - even when they do not know or lost the capability of knowing altogether.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just be patient & Loving & Give him time as he is going through allot.

 

[RAdam]

Yes, a child of God can depart from the faith. Paul said that it would happen and the Spirit expressed it in the clearest of language. What that person needs is prayers, not people sitting around and questioning if he really was a child of God or not.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, a child of God can depart from the faith. Paul said that it would happen and the Spirit expressed it in the clearest of language. What that person needs is prayers, not people sitting around and questioning if he really was a child of God or not.

That sounds good, but, in reality, when something like this happens, the person who is struggling with a partner needs questions answered and whatever assurance the Bible does have to offer needs to be provided. Why? Because Amy is starting to have doubts about her own beliefs! So prayer is good and necessary, but answers dealing with her own issues are necessary too at this critical time.

All must remember this is a SPIRITUAL attack on both her and her husband and the faithful party needs all the ammunition we can give her to strengthen her own faith under this attack.

To imply that real born again children can fall away and lose their salvation is to join Satan in his attack on her much less on her husband.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thank you all so much. Your words are a blessing.

I know that a person can make a false profession and play the church game, but that isn't what I saw when my husband professed Christ..... Things like, God just puts us on this earth to suffer then we die and get judged and maybe we'll go to heaven.
One thing he has always had a problem with is the knowledge that he will go to heaven. I have told him countless times that God keeps His promises and if we put our faith in Jesus we can know that we are heaven bound. He was raised Catholic and was taught that we have to be "good" to go to heaven. I think he has struggled with that for years.

1 Thes. 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance;

Early in our marriage my wife had the same problem. No matter how much I assured her that I could see fruits of salvation in her life she still entertained doubts about her salvation.

One day, when she was expressing doubt, I simply agreed with her and told her that she probably is lost. That disturbed so much, that unknown to me, she got up after I had gone to sleep and spent the night in the bathroom in prayer between her and God alone. She came out that morning expressing she knew she was saved and has never expressed doubt about it again and that was 29 years ago. When I have reminded her of that through the years, she always laughs and said that was the very best thing I could have done was to challenge her salvation because she got alone with God and God confirmed it to her and when that happened that was the end of her doubts - "the Spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."- Romans 8:16

The assurance of salvation is not found in what YOU did, it is found in what God did TO you and FOR you and IN you!

 

[thegospelgeek]

Yes, a child of God can depart from the faith. Paul said that it would happen and the Spirit expressed it in the clearest of language. What that person needs is prayers, not people sitting around and questioning if he really was a child of God or not.

Amen. Pray, Pray Hard, and Pray some more.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Amen. Pray, Pray Hard, and Pray some more.

First, find your own foundations of faith in God and then base your prayers upon faith not fiction. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding" and acknowledge him in ALL your ways and God shall direct your paths.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First, find your own foundations of faith in God and then base your prayers upon faith not fiction. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding" and acknowledge him in ALL your ways and God shall direct your paths.

And how does proverbs 3:5 support the assertion that a believer cannot apostate?

 

[Dr. Walter]

And how does proverbs 3:5 support the assertion that a believer cannot apostate?

I did not give it for that purpose. It was given for the purpose of direction and comfort.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I did not give it for that purpose. It was given for the purpose of direction and comfort.

I'm sorry. I didn't understand you were trying to direct and comfort thegospelgeek.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I'm sorry. I didn't understand you were trying to direct and comfort thegospelgeek.

I was adding to the directions of what Gospel Geek was giving Amy. If you will read his post he was addressing Amy

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was adding to the directions of what Gospel Geek was giving Amy. If you will read his post he was addressing Amy

OH, I thought Thegospelgeek was afirming what RAdam said with regard to a christian being able to apostate but instead of wondering whether or not someone was ever saved to begin with.

 

[webdog]

Thank you all so much. Your words are a blessing.

I know that a person can make a false profession and play the church game, but that isn't what I saw when my husband professed Christ. He did the same thing that I did and went around telling people that he had been saved and he even said that he had "met Jesus". He had a wonderful testimony. It's hard to believe that it wasn't real.

Maybe he is just angry at God and his feelings are confused, but the things he says are very disturbing. Things like, God just puts us on this earth to suffer then we die and get judged and maybe we'll go to heaven.
One thing he has always had a problem with is the knowledge that he will go to heaven. I have told him countless times that God keeps His promises and if we put our faith in Jesus we can know that we are heaven bound. He was raised Catholic and was taught that we have to be "good" to go to heaven. I think he has struggled with that for years.

I have never seen a person turn from God this way. It's scary and my own beliefs are being tested. Not my faith in God, but my beliefs about eternal security. No, even that doesn't sound right. I guess what I'm trying to say is, after seeing my husband make this turn around, I'm beginning to think that a person can forfeit their salvation. I never thought that was possible until now. I don't believe for one second that God abandons us, but I am seeing how we can sure abandon Him.

Amy, my heart hurts for you and your husband. Even though we have never met, I feel like I know you and consider you a friend.
I can sympathize with your situation, as we are in a similar boat financially. It has rocked my faith, and I've been a believer since I was 7! Don't give up on him, keep praying...keep being his helper. I believe Scripture is full of instances where a believer can be deceived even to the point of doubting their standing with God. I have experienced this with my sister. She was a true fruit bearing believer...but she was physically lonely. She wanted a boyfriend / husband so desperately, and no man gave her much attention. Finally one did, and he was caught up in the occult, vampirism and horrible stuff. She fell for this guy so hard that she got caught up on his lifestyle. God took her out of this world at the age of 25, and her eternal destination is something I have wrestled with for a while, but God keeps taking me back to when she was on fire for the Lord, serving Him and others.

DO NOT think we can forfeit our salvation, as if we could eternal life is a misnomer. If we can lose it or forfeit it in ANY way, it's not by grace and most definitely not eternal.

Praying for you and your husband, Amy!raying:

 

[Dr. Walter]

OH, I thought Thegospelgeek was afirming what RAdam said with regard to a christian being able to apostate but instead of wondering whether or not someone was ever saved to begin with.

RAdam asserted his theology and then tried to shut down everyone else by chiding others about trying to determine the salvation status instead of praying. Gospelgeek reaffirmed the need to pray and pray real hard.

I responded to both posts, agreeing there is a need to pray but there is also the need to realize this is a spiritual attack upon her own faith as well, and she needs not merely prayer but all the support she can get to strengthen her own faith. The assertion of a works salvation is an spiritual attack by Satan.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

RAdam asserted his theology and then tried to shut down everyone else by chiding others about trying to determine the salvation status instead of praying. Gospelgeek reaffirmed the need to pray and pray real hard.

I responded to both posts, agreeing there is a need to pray but there is also the need to realize this is a spiritual attack upon her own faith as well, and she needs not merely prayer but all the support she can get to strengthen her own faith. The assertion of a works salvation is an spiritual attack by Satan.

How did you make that jump from 1) A christian can apostate to 2) works based salvation?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Just to clarify.

Amy, keep praying. It is not our place to decide if he was saved and has backsliden or if he was never saved. Just man made points to argue. What is important is stand by him, pray for him, and love him. I beleive in going to God over and over again, importunity I beleive is what the Bible calls it. I don't know how it works in the grand scheme of theology. I beleive that anyone who says they do is wrong. But I do know it works. I have seen it over and over again. From a teenage boy praying for his father for years and years, to the fact that my son just returned to Christ after seven years astray. It's hard, it's painful, and it can be extremely difficult. But intercede for him. You and your husband are in my prayers.

Love and God Bless,

(Please take the ES debates to another thread)

 

[RAdam]

To imply that real born again children can fall away and lose their salvation is to join Satan in his attack on her much less on her husband.

I didn't say a child of God could lose his/her salvation, I said a child of God could depart from the faith. A child of God is preserved in the hand of God and nothing can take one out of His hand. A child of God can, however, give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just to clarify.

Amy, keep praying. It is not our place to decide if he was saved and has backsliden or if he was never saved. Just man made points to argue. What is important is stand by him, pray for him, and love him. I beleive in going to God over and over again, importunity I beleive is what the Bible calls it. I don't know how it works in the grand scheme of theology. I beleive that anyone who says they do is wrong. But I do know it works. I have seen it over and over again. From a teenage boy praying for his father for years and years, to the fact that my son just returned to Christ after seven years astray. It's hard, it's painful, and it can be extremely difficult. But intercede for him. You and your husband are in my prayers.

Love and God Bless,

(Please take the ES debates to another thread)

Yes, well said GG :thumbs: