This is a continuation of the previous thread.
Last edited:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit - Part 2
- Thread starter Baptist Believer
- Start date
What is the scripture for this assertion?
I can’t help but notice you almost never cite scripture. If you are someone devoted to the scriptures, it would be second nature to you.
Ephesians 2:20 Canon of revelation from God has been nailed shut!
Thank you for actually using scripture to respond!
This passage says nothing about the canon of scripture, much less, that it is closed. It does touch on your actual previous assertion that there are no prophets today as in the Old Testament. I didn’t know what you meant by your assertion, so I can agree with you that John the Baptist was the last of the Old Testament style of prophets (see Matthew 11:11-14), but there are prophets in the New Testament era, given just like apostles, pastors, teachers, and evangelists (see Ephesians 4:11-13) that are given for the work of ministry until fullness of Christ.
The offices of both the Prophet as in the OT times, and the Apostles as in the 12 of Christ and Paul now been closed off!
The Old Testament style prophets are no more. The least of the Kingdom in the New Testament era is greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11), but that does not exclude prophets in the New Testament era at all.
I also see that you have slipped back into thinking of spiritual gifts as an "office" and not an enabling. I have NEVER been talking about "offices," whatever you think that means in the New Testament era.
The New Testament explicitly mentions the gifts and manifestation of prophet in all three lists of spiritual gifts in the New Testament. It is listed in the ministry gifts (Ephesians 4:11), the motivational gifts (Romans 12:6), and the manifestation gifts (1 Corinthians 12:10) -- the only gift to be mentioned in all three lists. Moreover, Paul exhorted his readers to desire to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:1). Unless you are making the assertion that there are no callings and spiritual gifts anymore (including pastors and teachers), then you are going to have to come to terms with the New Testament gift of prophets/prophecy.
You have provided no scripture for that assertion. Moreover, you are ignoring (I think, deliberately), that there were more apostles than The Twelve and Paul. Look at the discussion in Part One of this thread and refreshed your failing memory. It was address at least five or six times, since you kept ignoring the scriptures.
There is another question involved here. When do gifts of prophecy end, as so stated in I Corinthians 13:8? And furthermore, what is the meaning of But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (v.10).
I understand the meaning of 1 Corinthians 13:10 to be the fullness of the Kingdom of God, for we will have no need for those gifts.
The Greater Apostles had a unique calling and office to fulfill, and that has been closed off!
And none today are getting any additional revelations from the Lord, correct?
No more prophecies as in the sense of additional revelations from God, as now have completed canon of scripture!
I agree that the Twelve played a special role.
Yes, no one after Mattias became part of The Twelve. Paul, Barnabas and others were not part of The Twelve. They were regular apostles like we have today.
Very specifically, what do you mean by "revelations?" We know that God speaks to people and gives direction and insight. We know that God calls people to do certain things. That is all revelation.
Again, you'll need to explain what you mean by "additional revelations from God."
I believe you are making an assertion that the Bible does not make. I try to avoid doing that myself, so unless you can show me scripture that makes that claim, I will not give assent to your assertion. Please provide scripture to demonstrate that the canon of scripture is complete.
Paul was the very last Apostles called who was given the sign gifts and who had inspiration unto his books, far superior to any so called Apostle today!
(1) You have unbiblically connected the “sign gifts” as solely channeled through the apostles. Was Luke a liar when he recorded that Philip THE DEACON was performing signs among the Samaritans (Luke 8:5-8)?
If you claim Philip didn’t exercise the sign gifts you are demonstrating, AGAIN, that you reject the scripture when it conflicts with your pronouncements. My guess is that you will ignore this and try to change the subject because of your arrogance.
(2) You are still obsessing over apostles writing scripture, even though it was not necessarily evidence for an apostle, and not all apostles did it.
(3) You have no basis to make this claim since you have demonstrated that you don’t know the scriptures, generally refuse to cite them to make your case, and simply repeat your assertions to the detriment of everyone here.
NONE have ever claimed to be Apostles in the sense of the 12 and Paul after John died in the historical church, not until the heresies of the Charismatic Chaos Movement!
That is obvious. The Twelve were symbolic of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and a direct connection with the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Paul did not claim to be one of The Twelve. He was like Barnabas, Andronicus, Junia, Silas, Apollos, and likely Timothy.
Yes, John was apparently the last of The Twelve.
You clearly do not know Christian history or language. For example, in terms of using the term "apostle," Saint Patrick was the Apostle of Ireland andSaint Boniface was the Apostle to the Germanic peoples. The Roman Catholic Church's fundamental claim is apostolic succession through the Bishop of Rome (aka, the Pope). Moreover, our term missionary comes from the Latin word missio, which is the Latin equivalent of apostle. And that's just on the side of the Western Church!
You are flat out wrong. Moreover, there is no "Charismatic Chaos Movement" except in the mind of John MacArthur and the ones who accept his opinions are pure doctrine.
Paul was as of one of the 12 originals, as he was just as much an Apostle in the sense of getting and recording down to us inspired scriptures as peter and John!
No, he simply was not. That is extremely plain in scripture. Apparently you don't like scripture having authority over your opinions.
What is your standard, since scripture is obviously not?
[/QUOTE]...as he was just as much an Apostle in the sense of getting and recording down to us inspired scriptures as peter and John![/QUOTE]
I agree that Paul was just as much an apostle as The Twelve (like the other New Testament apostles beyond The Twelve and Paul), but you are apparently fixated on the unbiblical theory that only The Twelve could write scripture.
...as he was just as much an Apostle in the sense of getting and recording down to us inspired scriptures as peter and John![/QUOTE]
I agree that Paul was just as much an apostle as The Twelve (like the other New Testament apostles beyond The Twelve and Paul), but you are apparently fixated on the unbiblical theory that only The Twelve could write scripture.[/QUOTE]
Paul had the same degree of authority and inspiration and sign gifts imparted to him as Jesus had to the original 12!
What do you do with these verses?
Romans 11:13-14 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of the life that is in Christ Jesus,
I would contend that Mattias was never an Apostle since God did not specifically choose him. The apostles, in their human grief, cast lots for Mattias, but Jesus didn't specifically choose Mattias. On the other hand, Paul was specifically chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus and was given his Apostleship by Jesus.
This is not an issue worth bickering over. I just have my opinion.
As to your contention regarding prophecy, in my reading of scripture I cannot find a definitive ending before the return of our King. There is nothing to suggest 1 Corinthians 13 is referring to the Canon of the New Testament writings. The context suggests the return of Jesus.
I'm not sure to which one of us you are speaking, but I think you are exactly right that Paul is an apostle. As far as I know, no one has claimed he was not. But Paul was not part of The Twelve (scripture has been cited many times before). He was among the other apostles of the New Testament era, like Barnabas, Silas, James (the brother of Jesus), Apollos, Andronicus and Junia, etc.
That is a popular opinion (usually raised because of the assumption that there are only supposed to be 12 apostles), but Peter and the 11 were not reproved for appointing Matthias through the casting of lots (a standard way of divining God's will prior to Pentecost). It seems clear to me that Mattias was one of The Twelve, and he had followed Jesus from the very beginning of His ministry in Galilee.
Sure, no argument here. Other apostles may have also been called in a similar way, and it is just not recorded.
Okay.
Yes, exactly. Is a reference to the end of the age when all will be set right. There will be no need for prophecy, or missionaries (apostles), or special words of knowledge.