1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It was pure fraud. Biblical Tongues and interpretation do not work that way.
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Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit - Part 2
- Thread starter Baptist Believer
- Start date
When Jesus says he could do nothing on his own, he is referring to being one of three person's in the being we call God. Just as all of the Godhead chose as one to create, so all as one acted in what Jesus did on earth. Jesus function within the Godhead is different than our function with the Holy Spirit.
You don't know enough about the specific situation to make the claim. Furthermore, you have declared it fraud several times, assuming things were one way, only for me to clarify that they were actually another.
For instance, you claimed:
"The problem is, that tongue speakers spoke to God and not to people. So this was fraudulent."
I pointed out that she was speaking to God about a situation we were unaware of. My friend had been with me the whole time and we were both unaware of the situation she was praying about.
You responded:
If they spoke only to God it was not a human language. This is a dead giveaway to all such claims today.
And it was not a human language, it was ecstatic-sounding speech.
You responded:
It was of divine origin, not the meaningless babbling you hear of today.
I pointed out that I was speaking of exactly one instance on a specific day (35 years ago), at a specific place, regarding a specific situation.
You responded:
It was pure fraud. Biblical Tongues and interpretation do not work that way.
Instead of asking more questions to investigate whether or not the situation was valid, you have repeatedly claimed it was false. Moreover, for someone who does not believe tongues and interpretation exists, you have positioned yourself as an expert in how "it works." You realize that the Father, Son, and Spirit are Persons, not forces, right? Persons are not restricted like 'laws' of nature.
Something that you don't know is that I believe the tongues were a sign to ME, to put me into my place, since I had been quietly mocking the woman to my friend, saying that she had been out in the sun too long. He interpreted her words to me in astonishment, and then -- just about a minute later -- his interpretation, her tongue-speaking, and my arrogance was verified by seeing the unusual situation unfolding that she had apparently been praying about.
I agree.
I agree that the way Jesus functions in the Godhead is different than the way we function with the Godhead (we are not, nor ever will be, divine), BUT Jesus demonstrated how human beings are created to live in His earthly ministry. He took on disciples who walked with Him, took up His practices (as best they could), and modeled their lives upon Him. His disciples are commissioned to carry on His ministry until the end of the age.
So when I point out Jesus' words that He did nothing on His own initiative, that is also a model for how we are submissive to the Godhead for our ministry and works. If, according to the good will and wisdom of God, we engage in a sign or wonder, it has nothing to do with our own power, but the power of God working through us (1 Corinthians 12:11).
Tangible examples will help explain things. This is how the manifestations have operated in my own life:
In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, Paul lists examples of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, such as:
(1) “message of wisdom” - knowledge of what God wants to do in certain human situations. Often this manifests while a group of people are in prayerful discussion of problem and suddenly one or more people, seemingly out of nowhere, bring forward a solution that is perfectly suited to the situation.
(2) “message of knowledge” - specific knowledge of something that a believer would not have any way of knowing, in order to meet the need of someone else.
(3) “faith” - this is a specific, extraordinary, measure of faith to trust God in a trying circumstance.
(4) “gifts of healing” - an ability to know when God intends to divinely heal someone and, if there in person, to be used of God to heal in that moment.
(5) “miraculous powers” - a catch-all term for divine action that cannot be explained by natural forces. Some people put things like exorcism in this category, but I don’t thing Paul necessarily considers the act of exorcism a spiritual gift.
(6) “prophecy” - having a specific word of God for that moment and specific situation — it is usually informed by a message of knowledge or wisdom.
(7) “distinguishing between spirits” - this is what is often called spiritual discernment, immediately knowing the difference between a true and false teacher, or the work of God and the work of the evil one.
(8) “speaking in different kinds of tongues” - the momentary ability to speak in a language unknown to the speaker, whether if be a human language or an “unknown” language.
(9) “interpretation of tongues” - a momentary ability to understand a language unknown to the speaker, whether it be a human language or an “unknown” language.
The gifts most often manifested through me have been, in order of frequency:
I have not knowingly witnessed “faith” as a manifestation (aka “sign gift”), but that’s probably because I am far too sheltered here in the US. I imagine those facing martyrdom have this manifested in their lives.
(1) “message of wisdom” - knowledge of what God wants to do in certain human situations. Often this manifests while a group of people are in prayerful discussion of problem and suddenly one or more people, seemingly out of nowhere, bring forward a solution that is perfectly suited to the situation.
(2) “message of knowledge” - specific knowledge of something that a believer would not have any way of knowing, in order to meet the need of someone else.
(3) “faith” - this is a specific, extraordinary, measure of faith to trust God in a trying circumstance.
(4) “gifts of healing” - an ability to know when God intends to divinely heal someone and, if there in person, to be used of God to heal in that moment.
(5) “miraculous powers” - a catch-all term for divine action that cannot be explained by natural forces. Some people put things like exorcism in this category, but I don’t thing Paul necessarily considers the act of exorcism a spiritual gift.
(6) “prophecy” - having a specific word of God for that moment and specific situation — it is usually informed by a message of knowledge or wisdom.
(7) “distinguishing between spirits” - this is what is often called spiritual discernment, immediately knowing the difference between a true and false teacher, or the work of God and the work of the evil one.
(8) “speaking in different kinds of tongues” - the momentary ability to speak in a language unknown to the speaker, whether if be a human language or an “unknown” language.
(9) “interpretation of tongues” - a momentary ability to understand a language unknown to the speaker, whether it be a human language or an “unknown” language.
The gifts most often manifested through me have been, in order of frequency:
- Distinguishing between spirits (common)
- Message of knowledge (every few months, usually related to evangelism or ministry to persons in crisis)
- Prophecy (a few times a year)
- Message of wisdom (perhaps once or twice a year)
- Gifts of healing (on average, about once a year)
- Miraculous powers, if exorcism in included (rare — last time was in 1991)
I have not knowingly witnessed “faith” as a manifestation (aka “sign gift”), but that’s probably because I am far too sheltered here in the US. I imagine those facing martyrdom have this manifested in their lives.
Does this make sense to you? Do you want to specifically ask about any of these manifestations?
Arguing for or against a supernatural experience is futile. One cannot prove it to a skeptic and the skeptic cannot disprove it.
I wish you could have recorded the speech and then broken down the language so we could see how each word corresponded to an English word in translation. This would help in the conversation, but since you cannot produce this and leave it to a very general "ecstatic" language, you will not convince a skeptic. You, and the skeptic, will have to separate without any agreement and with both still being convinced of their position.
That's the long way to say: "Let it go."
I understand and I will not argue against your claimed experience. Instead, I note that Paul wrote to a dysfunctional church in Corinth that was struggling to remove itself from the paganism in the culture. They were clamoring for gifts in which they could brag about themselves and have others look at them and be impressed. Paul wrote to tell them to knock it off. He clarified and reminded them that love of others is greater than selfish behavior. He pointed out that gifts that benefitted the whole community were to be sought rather than selfish use of a gift. Paul reminds us that the entire body needs all its parts to function properly and that all body parts are given for a reason. None should be looked at as being less than. Therefore, stop clamoring and trying to claim a "special" and popular gift that seems spectacular (ie tongues) and instead be content with the gift God gives and let the body of Christ be blessed by the gift God gave you for the community of believers.
1 Corinthians is a warning against selfishness, not a prescription for how the body of Christ should function in regard to tongues.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If anyone trusts the bible and understands tongues and prophecy, it was a fraud. Why don't you take a "tongues" recording around and see how many different interpretations you get?
I agree. I am not interested in tongues, have never wanted to speak in tongues or interpret them. I could care less about them.
Yet some people here are obsessed with them, probably based on some bad experiences they have had. I have also had bad experiences with tongues speakers, especially those that insisted one could not be Spirit-filled unless one spoke in tongues.
Yet, I cannot simply dismiss tongues since Jesus has corrected me of my previous arrogance categorically denying them.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Have you studied American Pentecostalism and its ties to voodoo?
Here's a start: Speaking in Tongues: Glossolalia and Stress Reduction | Dana Foundation
https://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Pentecostalism-Its-Roots-Slavery/dp/1500858080
Lots of discussion on the net.
No, it wasn't.
(1) My friend had never spoken in tongues (still has not), had an interest in the charismatic movement, nor had ever interpreted tongues.
(2) My friend heard both the ecstatic speech and the meaning of her prayer in Spanish (the language his mother usually spoke to him)
(3) We did not know the woman speaking in tongues, except she was part of a larger multi-church group doing beach ministry with us.
(4) My friend and I had been loading and fetching a heavy cooler full of ice and water bottles to take back to the first aid test where we had set up.
(5) My friend interpreted the woman's pray as praying "for Curt and his confrontation with the demonized man," which baffled us. I only theoretically believed in demonization at the time, and we had seen no evidence of anything like that happening that day.
(6) A minute or two later, we say the organizer of the event, Curt, confronting a man with "666" tattooed on his forehead, screaming obscenities and blasphemies against all of us, and Curt sending him away in the power of Jesus.
The whole demonized man thing could have been an elaborate ruse (it was disturbing for most), or the woman praying in tongues simply deluding herself, but my friend suddenly interpreting her words and being baffled by the experience, with the interpretation being almost immediately confirmed by circumstances, could not have been faked.
The only other way it could have been faked is for my friend, the woman praying, and someone playing a demonized man who tattooed 666 on his forehead conspiring together to fool me. But I had known my friend for more than a year from college, and he had never met any of the other people. He had never been to that part of Texas before and was meeting everyone for the first time that day.
One would get hundreds of false interpretations. Apparently you think I'm a rube if you are using that argument.
Apparently you don't believe me when I tell you I have no interest in Pentecostalism, nor have I obtained my views from Pentecostalism or the charismatic movement...
Sigh.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Have you ever seen any of the Acts of the Apostles today? Where are the miracles? Who is raising the dead these days? What about the heightened levels of mental illness in those circles? Prove your position with hard evidence if it is true.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you were interested in it, you'd know more about scripture on the matter.
What do you mean by "Acts of the Apostles?" I know missionaries (apostles) who have seen God's power manifested in their ministries.
What kind of miracles? If you define a miracle as an act of God, I am fortunate to see them quite a bit. People come to faith all the time.
I have previously explained how the manifestations work in my own life.
I have no idea. Even in the ministry of Jesus, raising the dead was quite rare.
Just because God chooses not to do something doesn't mean that it is not available according to the will and wisdom of God.
"Those circles?" What circles? Christian 'circles,' or are you still obsessing about charismatics?
What evidence would you accept? How would it be quantified? What would be the control measure? If I meet your stated parameters, will you commit to believing?
Well, my knowledge of scripture seems to be far superior to yours on the matter. You haven't brought up any argument or scripture that I haven't heard and seriously considered over the years, and you have been unwilling or unable to respond any biblical arguments I have made disproving your viewpoint -- except for restating your opinions over and over.
Interesting that the only signs and wonders Jesus warned us about were false one performed in last days!
Do you know any who had received extra revelations, or had miracles and healings did as Jesus and his Apostles did then?
Do you see tongues as still gifted to us today? do you see the Holy Spirit operating today just as he did in acts?
Jesus warned us about false signs and wonders, but not about true works of the Spirit.
Your reasoning seems to be that if any counterfeit money exists, all money is worthless.
If by “extra revelations” you mean writing scripture, then no.
If by “extra revelations” you mean hearing guidance from God, then yes.
Miracles and healing? Yes.
In some limited cases, yes.
Yes.
Jesus stated that the Church of the last days will not be same as one in Acts though!