Bible records that the Apostles took it upon themselves to replace Judas, but that Jesus Himself replaced Him via Paul!
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Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit
- Thread starter Baptist Believer
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Sorry, but you are wrong. The Bible states specifically that "Matthias...was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:27). Since the Bible puts Matthias as an official member of the 12, who are we to say it is wrong?
Furthermore, if we make Paul the 12th in place of Judas, we then have to have 13 apostles, since along with Paul, Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:14, "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul...."
37818
Well-Known Member
Also Paul did not count himself as one of the 12 per 1 Corinthians 15:5 and context.
But peter saw Paul as being His equal as an Apostle, as the One sent to the Gentiles!
Paul stated that he was an Apostle born out of season, and the Bible recorded down correctly that mattius was viewed as being numbered among them, but was he commissioned by Giod as an Apostle, as know Paul was by Jesus Himself, as the One sent to the gentiles!
Sure, but none of that makes him a member of the 12, nor opposes the Scripture that specifically says Matthias was numbered as the replacement for Judas. And if "numbered with the apostles" is not being commissioned by God as an apostle, what in the world is? Scripture is true and authoritative.
I think you are just following what you have been taught. Many theologians and commentators have take a shallow approach to the issue of the replacement for Judas. I've seen many such. They generally only list the 12, willy nilly including Paul and ignoring others called apostle in the NT (as Baptist Believer has already listed):
1. Barnabas (Acts 14:13-14)
2. James the Lord’s brother (1 Cor. 15:7, Gal. 1:19)
3. Possibly Andronicus and Junias (Rom. 16:7)
4. Apollos (1 Cor. 4:6, 9)
5. Silvanus and Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
6. Silas
7. Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25, messenger, ἀπόστολον)
8. Nameless “messengers” (2 Cor. 8:23, messengers, ἀπόστολοι)
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Where is the scripture for this assertion? Do you have additional written revelation that I do not have?
Matthias
"Has anyone else noticed this similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:
It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?
It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?
The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:
Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17
Christ refers to Judas as a devil:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71
Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count as is Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.
MHO, Paul is the twelfth apostle."
"...hard for me to imagine that Paul's name is not on one of those foundations of the New Covenant." Revelation 21:14
"Has anyone else noticed this similarity between the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel?:
It could be asked concerning the tribes: Were there 12, 13, or 14 tribes of Israel?
It could be asked concerning the apostles: Were there 12, 13, or 14 apostles?
The question concerning the tribes revolves around Joseph and his two sons (the half-tribes) Manasseh and Ephraim. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
The question concerning the apostles revolves around Judas, Matthias, and Paul. Which one of these is counted in the twelve?
Dan is called a serpent and an adder in his father's prophecy:
Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Gen 49:17
Christ refers to Judas as a devil:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6:70,71
Dan is not included in the tally of the tribes given in Rev 7 . Manasseh is included in the count as is Joseph. Ephraim is almost of a certain counted as one with Joseph.
MHO, Paul is the twelfth apostle."
"...hard for me to imagine that Paul's name is not on one of those foundations of the New Covenant." Revelation 21:14
Think that we can all agree though that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles commissioned by Lord Jesus, and that he was the last one so commissioned by Jesus!
No, but do we have a record of mattius being commissioned by the risen Lord Jesus Himself, as we know paul had been?
Hard to believe that the Apostle to the gentiles, perhaps the single greatest one, was not a replacement for judas!
Note that Matthias met the qualifications the 11 gave: "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:21). For the 11 to have made a mistake here they must have been out of God's will. Yet they were preparing for the greatest revival in history, and there is no Scripture saying they were backslidden and out of God's will when they chose Matthias by lot (by vote, according to the Greek).
Again, are you then saying that the other NT apostles who were not of the 12 were not commissioned by Jesus? For example, that Barnabas was a has-been, a johnny-come-lately who didn't deserve to be called "apostle"? But the Bible calls him one in the very same verse where Paul is called one, making Barnabas every bit equal to Paul. Again, here it is: "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul..." (Acts14:14).
37818
Well-Known Member
Then why does Paul refer to the twelve to be other than himself in 1 Corinthians 15:5-8, ". . . that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: . . ."?
I am thinking more along the lines that there are the greater, proper Apostles of Jesus, the 12 so called, and do see Paul in that group per Lord jesus Himself!
When did the Lord Jesus Himself name Paul as one of the 12? Didn't happen. And you haven't answered how the 11 were wrong to choose Matthias.
The false assumption you are making is that Jesus Himself had some different qualification for a disciple being part of the 12 than the 12 themselves. But Jesus said nothing like that when He called Paul to be an apostle or at any other time.
Well yes, but that still doesn't say how Paul got to be one of the 12. Was Luke one of the 12? Mark? No? But they wrote inspired truths for us.
Good points, but my understanding is that they were "linked" to one of the Apostles, Mark to peter and Luke to paul!
That's a theory, but there is no "smoking gun" proof of it. You can't prove your point with a theory.
Isn;t that linking together with established Apostles though "green-light" their works into the canon?
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