Apostles, prophets and manifestations of the Holy Spirit

[Baptist Believer]

On the thread created to express contempt for Russ Moore, Yeshua1 made a vague accusation against Moore about his trying to find "a modern day Prophet(sic)." Yeshua1 was politely asked to clarify and back up his allegation. Yeshua1 tried to turn the conversation in other directions, and eventually admitted that he MIGHT have misattributed his incoherent claim.

That led to the following series of exchanges:

We have the inspired scriptures and the illumination of and by the Holy Spirit their author, so no need for Prophets today!

Modern day prophets = preachers and teachers
Modern day apostles = missionaries

I realize you are talking about charismatic excesses, but just because some churches and organizations misuse the biblical terminology doesn't invalidate correct biblical usage and giftings.

No prophets or Apostles today as they were in the Bible!

Repeatedly shouting it doesn't make it true.

Apostle = (from the Greek, ἀπόστολος, meaning "one who is sent"). Do you really mean to claim that God doesn't send anyone on mission? That's exactly what missionaries do? Do you claim missionaries have no authority to do their work?

Prophet = (from the Greek, προφήτης, meaning forth-teller"). Do you really mean to claim that God doesn't empower anyone to speak in the name and power of the Holy Spirit? That's what preachers are supposed to do. Do you claim preachers have no authority to do their work?

I am saying that there are today none in the office of the Apostle or prophet as described in the Bible!

I am literally using the biblical words and meanings, as demonstrated and described in the Bible.

Apostles of Christ were NOT pastors and teacher sin the sense of the term today, as they were unique to time of Christ, and had sign gifts and revelations from the Lord!

The sign gifts are active today and are manifested as needed. Regarding "revelations," God still speaks to His people. I know there is a thread of Christendom who is fiercely opposed to that idea, but that does not change the reality of it.

The sign gifts were given to the Apostles of the Lord Jesus for a specific time and reason, and do you hold that we still have ongoing revelations from God apart from the Bible then?

Where is the scripture that indicates the sign gifts are for a specific time? As to reasons, are there still people who need to see signs? Yes, there are.

If your pastor/preacher and members do not regularly experience the guidance of God, your church is in bad shape. In my own experience, God gives general guidance (a general sense of knowing what to do), specific guidance (sudden knowledge of what to do in a particular moment), biblical guidance (unfolding and opening of the meaning of scripture as I study and meditate on it), and occasional extremely specific knowledge of someone else’s circumstances so I can go there and intervene (usually someone in crisis or in need of evangelism).

Regarding sign gifts, they manifest in any believer, as needed, who is open to being used of God and has the ability to handle the implications of that gift being manifested by the nature of their personality or maturity of character. These gifts cannot exercised according to the will of the person of whom God uses, and the manifestation of the gift can be rejected. One or all of these gifts may be manifested in one person, but the gifts that manifest usually fall into the areas that individual disciples can handle, so, often, the same few gifts are frequently manifested, while others rarely, if ever. Paul teaches:

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.​

He lists examples such as:

(1) “message of wisdom” - knowledge of what God wants to do in certain human situations. Often this manifests while a group of people are in prayerful discussion of problem and suddenly one or more people, seemingly out of nowhere, bring forward a solution that is perfectly suited to the situation.
(2) “message of knowledge” - specific knowledge of something that a believer would not have any way of knowing, in order to meet the need of someone else.
(3) “faith” - this is a specific, extraordinary, measure of faith to trust God in a trying circumstance.
(4) “gifts of healing” - an ability to know when God intends to divinely heal someone and, if there in person, to be used of God to heal in that moment.
(5) “miraculous powers” - a catch-all term for divine action that cannot be explained by natural forces. Some people put things like exorcism in this category, but I don’t thing Paul necessarily considers the act of exorcism a spiritual gift.
(6) “prophecy” - having a specific word of God for that moment and specific situation — it is usually informed by a message of knowledge or wisdom.
(7) “distinguishing between spirits” - this is what is often called spiritual discernment, knowing the difference between a true and false teacher, or the work of God and the work of the evil one.
(8) “speaking in different kinds of tongues” - the momentary ability to speak in a language unknown to the speaker, whether if be a human language or an “unknown” language.
(9) “interpretation of tongues” - a momentary ability to understand a language unknown to the speaker, whether it be a human language or an “unknown” language.​

The gifts most often manifested through me have been, in order of frequency:

• Distinguishing between spirits (common)
• Message of knowledge (every few months, usually related to evangelism or ministry to persons in crisis)
• Prophecy (a few times a year)
• Message of wisdom (perhaps once or twice a year)
• Gifts of healing (on average, about once a year)
• Miraculous powers, if exorcism in included (rare — last time was in 1991)

I have witnessed what appears to be a genuine manifestation of tongues and interpretation of tongues only once (July 4, 1987 - Stewart Beach, Galveston, Texas), although I have been around people speaking in “tongues” far more often than I’d like.

I have not knowingly witnessed “faith” as a manifestation (aka “sign gift”), but that’s probably because I am far too sheltered here in the US. I imagine those facing martyrdom have this manifested in their lives.

Does that help?

The sign gifts function thru an Apostle, and there are none today who have that Office, as described in NT, and the revelatory gifts not given as all revelation God has to give to us in the scriptures!

IN ORDER NOT TO COMPLETELY TAKE THE PREVIOUS THREAD OFF TOPIC, I WILL CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION IN THE NEXT POST.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The sign gifts function thru an Apostle…

Anyone who has even casually read the Gospels and Acts knows this is false.

While the sign gifts did function through apostles, they also functioned through others. Why would Paul give instructions to the Corinthian congregation about the manifestations of the Spirit (aka “sign gifts”) if they should not expect to see them manifested amongst themselves and in the congregation (see the entire argument in 1 Corinthians 12)? Paul explicitly ties the usage of those gifts to the interconnectedness of the body of Christ, showing the Corinthians that they must function together. If we assert that the manifestations are only for apostles, Paul’s teaching makes no sense.

Regarding persons other than apostles who manifest the “sign gifts,” let me give some examples:

The Seventy-Two:

Luke 10:1, 8-9 - Now after this the Lord appointed seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. ...Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is served to you; and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’...​

Deacons:

Stephen and Phillip (among others) were selected as the first deacons:

Acts 6:5 - The announcement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.​

-- Stephen the Deacon Manifested Holy Spirit Power

Acts 6:8 - And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.​

-- Philip the Deacon Manifested Holy Spirit Power

Acts 8:6 - The crowds were paying attention with one mind to what was being said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing.

Acts 8:13 - Now even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was repeatedly amazed.

Acts 8:39-40 - When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea.​

…and there are none today who have that Office, as described in NT…

This seems to be the real issue. You are confusing manifestations (“sign gifts”) of the Holy Spirit with an office. Gifts are given to all, while some are called into special roles (“offices”). In regard to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, I believe these are different from “spiritual gifts” given elsewhere as a mode of service. Manifestations are enablings given, as needed, to believers in ministry activities.

I also think you are confusing the gift of an apostle with The Twelve whom Jesus selected to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. He led them as God led the 12 tribes in the wilderness. While there were 12 close disciples, many other disciples were usually with Jesus, including women, many of them from the very beginning in Galilee (see Luke 8:1-3; Matthew 27:55). Moreover, the category of apostles includes more than just The Twelve original persons directly selected by Jesus. It also includes Matthias (replacement for Judas Iscariot), Paul, Barnabas (Acts 14:3-4, 14), Andronicus, Junia (Romans 16:7), and probably a number of others in the first century of the church.

…and the revelatory gifts not given as all revelation God has to give to us in the scriptures!

So when someone says they are “called” to ministry, they are lying? When a church prays for guidance, and guidance comes, we can’t trust it? Of course not. God is still giving revelation.

What you are probably obsessing over is that I allow for the theoretical possibility that additional scripture might be written. It seems you have taken that to mean that I’m open to anything anyone claims is scripture, which is simply false. The reality is that I am unwilling to make a claim that the Bible does not make, namely, that new scripture is not possible. Since we have not seen any new scripture in 2,000 years, I do not expect anything to turn up now or in the future. In a practical sense, God gave us a written biblical foundation and He still speaks regarding specific things for His people as He desires. There is no one functioning as part of The Twelve anymore, and we don’t need a vicar for Christ (like a pope), since God speaks to groups and individuals.

 

[Baptist Believer]

On the other thread, Logos1560 posted this:

The apostles had to have seen Christ and been eye witnesses of what they testified (John 15:27, Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor. 9:1, 1 John 1:1, Gal. 1:11-12, Acts 10:39-43, 2 Peter 1:16-19). God bore witness to the inspiration of the words revealed to and recorded by the apostles and prophets by signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb. 2:3-4, 2 Cor. 12:12). The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). The apostles like Paul received the gospel “by the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12).

No more revelation and inspired Scripture have been given since the giving of the book of Revelation to the Apostle John (Rev. 22:18). The giving and writing of the Scriptures were finished with the completion of the New Testament (Rev. 22:18, Rom. 15:4, John 20:31). After the New Testament was completed, no further need for the gift of apostles and prophets existed (Rev. 22:18, 1 Cor. 13:10, Eph. 2:20, Eph. 3:5).

 

[Baptist Believer]

PART 1 of 2

The apostles had to have seen Christ and been eyewitnesses of what they testified (John 15:27, Acts 1:21-22, 1 Cor. 9:1, 1 John 1:1, Gal. 1:11-12, Acts 10:39-43, 2 Peter 1:16-19).

You made two assertions:

(1) Apostles must have “seen Christ.”
While we know that the original Twelve and Matthias saw Jesus (among many other men and women) were disciples of Jesus from the beginning in Galilee, we also know that Paul was not a disciple of Jesus until after the Ascension and the martyrdom of Stephen. Moreover, Paul saw Jesus in a vision, not in a “natural” way like the previous persons I mentioned. So “seeing” Christ could conceivably extend to anyone who has seen Christ in a vision.

(2) Apostles must have been eyewitnesses of what they testified.
While the original Twelve (perhaps not Matthias) could tell all sorts of details from the teaching and activities of the inner circle of disciples, Paul did not hesitate to teach about events he DID NOT witness, such as the Last Supper (see 1 Corinthians 11:23-26).​

Let’s look at the scripture you cited for these assertions:

John 15:27 - …and you are testifying as well, because you have been with Me from the beginning.​

Speaking to the original Twelve (actually only eleven, since Judas had already left to betray Jesus), Jesus is simply stating what the eleven will be doing in the future. It does not exclude anyone from testifying about Jesus, since we are all called to do that.

Acts 1:21-22 - Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”​

Peter wants to replace Judas with another, so they set some standards as to who can be one of The Twelve. Lots of people make the mistake of confusing The Twelve with all of the apostles. All of The Twelve are apostles, but not all of the apostles are part of the Twelve. For instance, Barnabas was an apostle (Acts 14:3-4, 14) and signs and wonders were manifested through him (Acts 14:3-4, 15:12). Andronicus and Junia were also apostles (see Romans 16:7).

The Twelve were a symbolic number of close disciples/apostles whom Jesus selected to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. He led them as God led the 12 tribes in the wilderness. While there were 12 close disciples, many other disciples were usually with Jesus, including women, many of them from the very beginning in Galilee (see Luke 8:1-3; Matthew 27:55). The Twelve was such a fixed image that Paul referred to The Twelve when there were actually only 11 present (1 Corinthians 15:4-6), since Judas was already dead and Matthias was not selected until after the Ascension:

...and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep.

It’s not an error, simply a reference to the particular office that The Twelve possessed. And don’t miss that Paul was an apostle without being part of The Twelve!

Other scripture you cited:

1 Corinthians 9:1 - Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?​

These rhetorical questions are intended for Paul’s audience to answer “yes.” However, these rhetorical questions do not establish the assertion that someone must have seen the Christ in the flesh (since Paul did not) to be an apostle. He’s simply not attempting to teach such a thing with these questions.

1 John 1:1 - What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life...​

Yes, John was an eyewitness. That does not restrict apostleship to seeing Jesus in the flesh.

Galatians 1:11-12 - For I would have you know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel which was preached by me is not of human invention. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.​

This cuts against your assertion that one has to have seen Christ, unless you grant that anyone who has a valid vision is an apostle.

Acts 10:39-43 - We are witnesses of all the things that He did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He be revealed, not to all the people, but to witnesses who had been chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and to testify solemnly that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”​

Peter uses the collective “we” (since he was the only disciple of Christ present in the home of Cornelius) to speak of either “The Twelve” or all of the disciples of Jesus. Certainly he is an eyewitness, but this does not establish your assertion that only eyewitnesses to Jesus in the flesh can testify of Him.

2 Peter 1:16-19 - For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such a declaration as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory: “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well pleased”— and we ourselves heard this declaration made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.​

Peter again uses the collective “we” to speak of the three disciples (Peter, James, and John) who were witnesses of the transfiguration of Jesus. Again, he is an eyewitness, but this does not establish your assertion that only eyewitnesses to Jesus in the flesh can testify of Him.

Your first two assertions are not nearly as definitive as they initially appear. In fact, your scripture references undermine them.

CONTINUED

 

[Baptist Believer]

PART 2 of 2

God bore witness to the inspiration of the words revealed to and recorded by the apostles and prophets by signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb. 2:3-4, 2 Cor. 12:12).

I agree completely. Your citations for this are valid.

I just need to note that Paul, when writing 2 Corinthians 12:12, is NOT saying that ONLY apostles perform signs, wonders, and miracles. Deacons like Stephen and Philip also performed miracles, not to mention the 72 disciples Jesus sent out during His ministry.

The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). The apostles like Paul received the gospel “by the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12).

I agree completely. Your citations for this are valid.

No more revelation and inspired Scripture have been given since the giving of the book of Revelation to the Apostle John (Rev. 22:18).
NOPE. You cited:

Revelation 22:18 - I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book...​

You need to remember, (a) “this book” is the Book of Revelation, not the Bible; (b) the New Testament writings were not collected for many years after Revelation was written, so it was not written to “close” the Bible; (c) and the Gospel of John and the three Johannine epistles (1 John, 2 John, and 3 John) were not written until after Revelation. If you make the claim that the last chapter of Revelation closes out the New Testament when it was written, then you must reject four beloved books of the New Testament, two of which you have already cited in defense of your views.

The giving and writing of the Scriptures were finished with the completion of the New Testament (Rev. 22:18, Rom. 15:4, John 20:31).

I tend to agree, but not because of these scriptures you cited:

Revelation 22:18 - I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book...​

I just covered this one.

Romans 15:4 - For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.​

Paul is making reference to the Old Testament, not the New Testament. He has just quoted from Psalm 69. It makes me wonder if you have actually read these passages or you have just cut and pasted from somewhere.

John 20:31 - ...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name...​

This does not support your assertion. Beyond that, this was almost certainly written after Revelation, so if you hold your previous assertion to be true, this isn’t scripture.

After the New Testament was completed, no further need for the gift of apostles and prophets existed (Rev. 22:18, 1 Cor. 13:10, Eph. 2:20, Eph. 3:5).

Revelation 22:18 - I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book...​

This does not support your assertion.

1 Corinthians 13:10 - ...but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.​

You make a huge assumption that the “perfect” is referring to the canon of scripture. Most likely, in its context, it is referring to the fullness of the Kingdom of God, when all things are restored.

Ephesians 2:20 - ...having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone...​

Certainly the apostles and prophets are foundational, but that does not mean that they don’t exist now. I think there is some confusion about “apostles” and “prophets” with detractors assuming that these present gifts to the church have some sort of ecclesiastical authority as vicars of Christ (like a pope), but I am not arguing that at all. Again, this seems to be part of confusing apostles with “The Twelve.”

Ephesians 3:5 - ...which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit...​

This simply does not support your assertion.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Revelation 21:14 states that the number of the Apostles was 12. So, who exactly was Apostle Number 12? Was it Matthias (Acts 1:26) or was it Barnabas or Paul (Acts 14:14)?

Almost certainly Matthias, since he was elected to The Twelve to replace Judas. Paul was an apostle, but not part of The Twelve. The same with Barnabas, Andronicus, Junia, and probably others.

Remember, Revelation is using lots of symbols, and The Twelve that Jesus selected were symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (although there were actually 13 tribes).

 

[Baptist Believer]

PART 2 of 2

God bore witness to the inspiration of the words revealed to and recorded by the apostles and prophets by signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb. 2:3-4, 2 Cor. 12:12).

I agree. Your citations for this are valid.

I just want to note that Paul, when writing 2 Corinthians 12:12, is NOT saying that ONLY apostles perform signs, wonders, and miracles.

The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). The apostles like Paul received the gospel “by the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:12).

Yes, I agree. Your citations for this are valid.

No more revelation and inspired Scripture have been given since the giving of the book of Revelation to the Apostle John (Rev. 22:18).

NOPE.

You cited:

Revelation 22:18 - I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book...​

You need to remember, (a) “this book” is the Book of Revelation, not the Bible; (b) the New Testament writings were not collected for many years after Revelation was written, so it was not written to “close” the Bible; (c) and the Gospel of John and the three Johannine epistles (1 John, 2 John, and 3 John) were not written until after Revelation. If you make the claim that the last chapter of Revelation closes out the New Testament when it was written, then you must reject four beloved books of the New Testament, two of which you have already cited in defense of your views.

The giving and writing of the Scriptures were finished with the completion of the New Testament (Rev. 22:18, Rom. 15:4, John 20:31).

I tend to agree, but not because of these scriptures you cited:

Revelation 22:18 - I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book...​

I just covered this one.

Romans 15:4 - For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.​

Paul is making reference to the Old Testament, not the New Testament. He has just quoted from Psalm 69. It makes me wonder if you have actually read these passages or you have just cut and pasted from somewhere.

John 20:31 - ...but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name...​

This does not support your assertion. Beyond that, this was almost certainly written after Revelation, so if you hold your previous assertion to be true, this isn’t scripture.

After the New Testament was completed, no further need for the gift of apostles and prophets existed (Rev. 22:18, 1 Cor. 13:10, Eph. 2:20, Eph. 3:5).

Revelation 22:18 - I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book...​

This does not support your assertion.

1 Corinthians 13:10 - ...but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.​

You make a huge assumption that the “perfect” is referring to the canon of scripture. Most likely, in its context, it is referring to the fullness of the Kingdom of God, when all things are restored.

Ephesians 2:20 - ...having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone...​

Certainly the apostles and prophets are foundational, but that does not mean that they don’t exist now. I think there is some confusion about “apostles” and “prophets” with detractors assuming that these present gifts to the church have some sort of ecclesiastical authority as vicars of Christ (like a pope), but I am not arguing that at all. Again, this seems to be part of confusing apostles with “The Twelve.”

Ephesians 3:5 - ...which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit...​

This simply does not support your assertion.

 

[kyredneck]

Baptist Believer quoting @Logos1560:

Apostles must have been eyewitnesses of what they testified.....

No, witnesses, not only apostles, had to be eyewitnesses of what they testified; a witness, every whit as in an eyewitness to testify in a court of law.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10:39-42

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Pet 1:16

This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32

and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jn 15:27

Of the men therefore that have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto the day that he was received up from us, of these must one become a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:21,22

But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:30,31

For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also. 1 Cor 15:3-8

and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree....And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:30,32

And with great power gave the apostles their witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33

 

[Alcott]

This compels me to think of Peter Popoff and the tiny radio receiver in his ear. If anyone is going to prove to me they are a prophet (forthtelling) they will have to give a date for something to happen and it will have to happen. If anyone claims to have the gift of healing, I will have to see someone with a missing arm or leg grow another one. If anyone claims the gift of miracles based on faith, then let them bring Mt. Everest here to Texas. After having done that, they can put it back.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Almost certainly Matthias, since he was elected to The Twelve to replace Judas. Paul was an apostle, but not part of The Twelve. The same with Barnabas, Andronicus, Junia, and probably others.

Remember, Revelation is using lots of symbols, and The Twelve that Jesus selected were symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (although there were actually 13 tribes).

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Help me to understand your position on the Book of Revelation. Are you saying that the Book of Revelation is NOT part of the Bible? If the Book of Revelation IS, in fact, part of the Bible, then, IMHO at least, what it states about the Foundation of the City of "New Jerusalem" does NOT have 12 sides to its Foundation? The "fact" that the Book of Revelation may have been written or collected at some later date, IMHO anyway, doesn't, per se, negate the fact that it IS part of our Bible. Please clarify your statement(s) abou your position on the Book of Revelation.

 

[Baptist Believer]

This compels me to think of Peter Popoff and the tiny radio receiver in his ear. If anyone is going to prove to me they are a prophet (forthtelling) they will have to give a date for something to happen and it will have to happen.

You are confusing "forthtelling" with "foretelling."

If anyone claims to have the gift of healing...

In my understanding of the manifestation gifts (aka "sign gifts"), they are acts of God working through whoever is available for whoever has a need -- based on the will of God for that situation. Therefore, all Christians potentially can be a vessel to heal others, but no one has "the gift of healing." A person cannot choose to make healing happen outside of the will of God for the moment.

...I will have to see someone with a missing arm or leg grow another one.

Do you think Jesus did this? I am unaware of this kind of healing taking place in the Gospels. Are you demanding evidence beyond what Jesus gave?

If anyone claims the gift of miracles based on faith, then let them bring Mt. Everest here to Texas. After having done that, they can put it back.

Again, no one has "the gift of miracles," but miracles may occur through any Christian. But even so, why are you demanding such foolish displays of God's power? Jesus did nothing like that. He explicitly rejected Satan's temptation to turn stones to bread and cast himself from the pinnacle of the Temple, acts significantly less foolish and selfish than your mountain-moving exercise.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I'm not sure who is being asked this question, but I'll go ahead and answer.

Help me to understand your position on the Book of Revelation. Are you saying that the Book of Revelation is NOT part of the Bible?

No, not at all. Logos1560 made a claim that there could be no additional scripture written citing Revelation 22, completely forgetting that the Gospel of John and 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, were written after Revelation.

If the Book of Revelation IS, in fact, part of the Bible, then, IMHO at least, what it states about the Foundation of the City of "New Jerusalem" does NOT have 12 sides to its Foundation?

I'm not completely sure I understand your question, but I think your question has something to do with the fact that there were/are more than 12 apostles, and you find that to somehow conflict with the symbolic representation in Revelation 21:14.

We can be absolutely sure that there were more than 12 apostles (see previous posts for documentation), but I believe the passage in Revelation 21:14 is referring to The Twelve, which is a distinct group of apostles -- the original surviving eleven picked by Jesus early in His ministry, and Matthias, selected after the Ascension of Christ and before Pentecost.

The "fact" that the Book of Revelation may have been written or collected at some later date, IMHO anyway, doesn't, per se, negate the fact that it IS part of our Bible.

I agree completely.

 

[John of Japan]

As a former missionary who now teaches missions and missiology, I'm going to chime in here and agree with Baptist Believer that apostle = missionary. That is what I teach, and it seems very apparent to me from Scripture. How strange that we say Paul took three missionary journeys as an apostle, but modern missionaries are not apostles. We actually put the 12 apostles on a pedestal, and forget that many in Scripture were call apostles, as Baptist Believer has pointed out. An apostle was and is just a soul winning. church planting missionary. Period. Almost all of the missionaries I've ever discussed this with have agreed with me.

Having said that, I will disagree with anyone who says that a modern missionaries have miracle working power. There are no "sign gifts" nowadays that attest to the power of any individual. They are not needed. A missionary can pray and see miracles just like anyone else, but a missionary has no extra special power.

Concerning prophets, I believe there is a prophetic function of forth-telling now, but not of foretelling as in the Bible. The canon is closed, so there is no need for foretelling prophets.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I'm not sure who is being asked this question, but I'll go ahead and answer.


No, not at all. Logos1560 made a claim that there could be no additional scripture written citing Revelation 22, completely forgetting that the Gospel of John and 1 John, 2 John, and 3 John, were written after Revelation.


I'm not completely sure I understand your question, but I think your question has something to do with the fact that there were/are more than 12 apostles, and you find that to somehow conflict with the symbolic representation in Revelation 21:14.

We can be absolutely sure that there were more than 12 apostles (see previous posts for documentation), but I believe the passage in Revelation 21:14 is referring to The Twelve, which is a distinct group of apostles -- the original surviving eleven picked by Jesus early in His ministry, and Matthias, selected after the Ascension of Christ and before Pentecost.


I agree completely.

If I understand you correctly, is what you are saying, that "Apostles" such as Paul are NOT to be considered at all when tallying up to the number 12 as "True Apostles" (EX: Peter, James, or John)? If I'm interpreting your position as such, then you seem to be going against what must Biblical scholars whom I've read seem to think.

 

[Yeshua1]

As a former missionary who now teaches missions and missiology, I'm going to chime in here and agree with Baptist Believer that apostle = missionary. That is what I teach, and it seems very apparent to me from Scripture. How strange that we say Paul took three missionary journeys as an apostle, but modern missionaries are not apostles. We actually put the 12 apostles on a pedestal, and forget that many in Scripture were call apostles, as Baptist Believer has pointed out. An apostle was and is just a soul winning. church planting missionary. Period. Almost all of the missionaries I've ever discussed this with have agreed with me.

Having said that, I will disagree with anyone who says that a modern missionaries have miracle working power. There are no "sign gifts" nowadays that attest to the power of any individual. They are not needed. A missionary can pray and see miracles just like anyone else, but a missionary has no extra special power.

Concerning prophets, I believe there is a prophetic function of forth-telling now, but not of foretelling as in the Bible. The canon is closed, so there is no need for foretelling prophets.

His take though on the canon may still be open and might have continuing revelations from the Lord is very problematic!

 

[Yeshua1]

On the other thread, Logos1560 posted this:

Are there any modern day Apostles and prophets operating in the same sense as was in OT and NT?

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Are there any modern day Apostles and prophets operating in the same sense as was in OT and NT?

I would say, "Yes, there are "Modern Day Apostles." These would men that will repeat what the "Original NT Apostles" did. IOW, while the content of "The Original 12 NT Apostles" might vary in some instances (EX: Changing to Modern Time the designation "Iran" whereas the "Original NT Apostles" used "Persia".), their basic message would still remain the same.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would say, "Yes, there are "Modern Day Apostles." These would men that will repeat what the "Original NT Apostles" did. IOW, while the content of "The Original 12 NT Apostles" might vary in some instances (EX: Changing to Modern Time the designation "Iran" whereas the "Original NT Apostles" used "Persia".), their basic message would still remain the same.

Are they then gifted to do signs and wonders, and to write revelations to us, and pronounce additional ones?

 

[John of Japan]

His take though on the canon may still be open and might have continuing revelations from the Lord is very problematic!

I haven't seen him address this, but if he believes the canon is still open then I disagree.