You see the gifts and wonders as they do, and prophets for today!
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Apostolic Uniqueness
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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The apostles were chosen of Jesus Christ in the context of the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Later, in Lk 10, Jesus chose 70 other disciples. The gospel that Jesus Christ preached was not the gospel of salvation although all the elements of salvation were clearly defined by our Lord during his earthly ministry. For instance, he told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jewish nation, that one must be born again to enter into his kingdom. When he was asked to explain the new birth he said it, the new birth, will be predicated upon his being lifted up as the serpent was lifted up in Num 21.This information made two things exceedingly clear. 1) The kingdom that Jesus was preaching had not come, and 2) no one could be born again yet because he had not yet been lifted up as per the type.
Another illustration he gave was in John 6. A marvelous chapter, and one that should cause us to desire to remove our shoes because of the magnificent truths that are revealed there. He teaches that the external Christ cannot save and that salvation is dependent upon him being in the believer. He had set this teaching up by feeding the five thousand with 2 small fishes and 5 loaves and thus by him they were sustained when they had no bread. John 6 is the first of the 7 "I am" statements of John. He is the bread of life in Jn 6:35. He said one must eat his flesh and drink his blood or he has no life in him. This is the take away of Jn 6.
The political kingdom that Jesus preached to Israel only at his first coming required them to accept him as the prophesied OT Messiah of Israel. They had to accept his person as Messiah before they could ever accept him as savior. The Jews killed Jesus because he was claiming to be their King. The outward political kingdom of Christ was officially taken off the table in the encounter of Jesus in Matt chapters 10 thru 12 and the generation of rulers who were tasked to receive him as Messiah were cut off and cursed and Jesus saved individual Jews who would come to him in faith. In Matt 12 he spoke of the end of a growing season when the harvest was ripe but only a few laborers to gather it, and because it was not harvested, he began in chapter 13 to tell of a mystery kingdom when the king would be away and he gave 7 parables, called the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. They began with a new sowing and new season and culminated in a harvest that required a fire to burn up the tares that grew among the crop and the good to be gathered into the barns first. This kingdom is shown historically in the Acts and is explained in the epistles of Paul, who is the apostle to the gentiles.
This in no way voids any of the earthly and political kingdom promises that God has made to Israel in his covenants. The King will return to Israel and he will eliminate every rebel from off the earth before he establishes his world wide rule over the whole earth from Jerusalem. One cannot have a righteous kingdom with rebels in it. The "day of the Lord" judgements will eliminate every one of them.
Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
The structure of his kingdom will be as it was under Moses.
Moses = Jesus
Twelve heads of Israel = 12 Apostles
The 70 elders of Israel = 70 Prophets of Lk 10
Matt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Another illustration he gave was in John 6. A marvelous chapter, and one that should cause us to desire to remove our shoes because of the magnificent truths that are revealed there. He teaches that the external Christ cannot save and that salvation is dependent upon him being in the believer. He had set this teaching up by feeding the five thousand with 2 small fishes and 5 loaves and thus by him they were sustained when they had no bread. John 6 is the first of the 7 "I am" statements of John. He is the bread of life in Jn 6:35. He said one must eat his flesh and drink his blood or he has no life in him. This is the take away of Jn 6.
The political kingdom that Jesus preached to Israel only at his first coming required them to accept him as the prophesied OT Messiah of Israel. They had to accept his person as Messiah before they could ever accept him as savior. The Jews killed Jesus because he was claiming to be their King. The outward political kingdom of Christ was officially taken off the table in the encounter of Jesus in Matt chapters 10 thru 12 and the generation of rulers who were tasked to receive him as Messiah were cut off and cursed and Jesus saved individual Jews who would come to him in faith. In Matt 12 he spoke of the end of a growing season when the harvest was ripe but only a few laborers to gather it, and because it was not harvested, he began in chapter 13 to tell of a mystery kingdom when the king would be away and he gave 7 parables, called the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. They began with a new sowing and new season and culminated in a harvest that required a fire to burn up the tares that grew among the crop and the good to be gathered into the barns first. This kingdom is shown historically in the Acts and is explained in the epistles of Paul, who is the apostle to the gentiles.
This in no way voids any of the earthly and political kingdom promises that God has made to Israel in his covenants. The King will return to Israel and he will eliminate every rebel from off the earth before he establishes his world wide rule over the whole earth from Jerusalem. One cannot have a righteous kingdom with rebels in it. The "day of the Lord" judgements will eliminate every one of them.
Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
The structure of his kingdom will be as it was under Moses.
Moses = Jesus
Twelve heads of Israel = 12 Apostles
The 70 elders of Israel = 70 Prophets of Lk 10
Matt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
JD731,
Hello JD,
This thread is showing in part the unique position the Apostles were in as it pertains to the gospel of The Kingdom.
recently there have been few threads on that very topic
But salvation and entrance into the Kingdom is part and parcel of the good news.
okay...
Mt3:
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
John said it was at hand, later there is support for the fact that it has been inaugurated.
I think I know what you mean but could you clarify.....political Kingdom??? Where was this requirement spoken of?
I see what you have written, but can I see what scripture you think says this?
I do not see where it was taken off the table, but rather where it was redirected to a Holy Nation,Mt 21:43
This is a different thread in and of itself.Much to discuss there
Actually it did,
Deut31:
16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Deut32:
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Mt21:43
Some believe that. Others believe He is ruling over the whole earth right now, from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.
Sure you can and that is what has began to take place now;Psalm110;
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
isa13:Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
isa.34:
For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Jer46:
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
lam2:
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.
ezk13:
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.
Ezk.30For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Joel1:
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel2:Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
joel3;
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
Amos5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
Hello JD,
This thread is showing in part the unique position the Apostles were in as it pertains to the gospel of The Kingdom.
recently there have been few threads on that very topic
Many see a parallel to Moses as a type appointing the 70 elders in Num.11:16
In the other thread a case was made for both in that the gospel is not just about salvation, as important as that is.
But salvation and entrance into the Kingdom is part and parcel of the good news.
okay...
Mt3:
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
John said it was at hand, later there is support for the fact that it has been inaugurated.
I think I know what you mean but could you clarify.....political Kingdom??? Where was this requirement spoken of?
I see what you have written, but can I see what scripture you think says this?
I do not see where it was taken off the table, but rather where it was redirected to a Holy Nation,Mt 21:43
This is a different thread in and of itself.Much to discuss there
Actually it did,
Deut31:
16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Deut32:
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Mt21:43
.
Some believe that. Others believe He is ruling over the whole earth right now, from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem.
Sure you can and that is what has began to take place now;Psalm110;
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
there were several day of the Lord judgments in the OT> not just one.
isa13:Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
isa.34:
For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Jer46:
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
lam2:
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the Lord's anger none escaped nor remained: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.
ezk13:
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord.
Ezk.30For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Joel1:
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel2:Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
joel3;
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
Amos5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
False.
The Bible makes a distinction between The Twelve and the rest of the apostles (which includes Paul). You won’t accept that, but you don’t accept the Bible where you disagree with it.
(1) Paul explicitly disagrees with you, but you won’t accept it.
(2) The Bible teaches no such thing.
(3) I find it nearly blasphemous that you would claim that the theology of a disciple of Jesus is greater than the teaching of Jesus Himself. I’m not one of those people who believe Paul taught something different than Jesus, but a student is not greater than His master.
(4) It seems you nearly worship Paul. The focus of all of scripture is Jesus.
The ministry of The Twelve was unique to its time. The ministry of apostles of Christ continues.
(1) I don’t think this is true in a general sense. I have come across many charismatics who believe that one has to speak in tongues to be filled with the Spirit (some even claim tongue speaking is evidence of salvation).
(2) In the charismatic movement, tongues tend to be important. I think they are nearly irrelevant.
(3) There are prophets today, just like pastors and teachers. I am primarily gifted as a prophet.
(4) If charismatics believe like I do, then they probably also got their theology from the Bible.
Paul had the very same authority and distinctiveness as the original 12!
Six Hour Warning
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This thread will be closed sometime after 5:55 PM Pacific.
Yes, like the rest of the apostles that followed The Twelve.
NO, as he was the same as one of the Original Apostles!
He was not numbered with The Twelve. The Twelve literally walked with Jesus for three years. He is NOT part of that symbolic group.
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