Apple / FBI Legal Battle

[Don]

Anyone following this?

There's a LOT of bad information being put out; and so far, NONE of the candidates' comments indicate they actually understand the issue.

In a nutshell, Apple is being asked to create "back doors" in Apple phones, so that the FBI and other agencies can bypass encrypted texts and other messages.

Thoughts?

 

[Rolfe]

If the government has access to a "back door", hackers will use it.

 

[church mouse guy]

Apple should obey the court. Does Apple want to be known as safe for terrorists?--on second thought....

 

[Salty]

Put Hillary in charge!

 

[Don]

Apple should obey the court. Does Apple want to be known as safe for terrorists?--on second thought....

Would you clarify? I think I understand, but....

 

[Jkdbuck76]

So is Apple's OS tamper - proof so that nobody can hack it?
Are iPhones THAT secure? Somebody with knowledge pls respond.

I also note that the FBI is accusing Apple of acting out of greed. Apple's ceo said that they were concerned about security of all customers and even mentioned Chinese and Iranians.

This will end up in court.

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[Squire Robertsson]

This is a "local" case for me. So, I've been able to follow it a little more closely. The gov's first problem is the iPhone will turn into a brick if too many attempts are made at guessing the password. That's what the investigators fear. Apple put in the security measures after the Snowden leaks. Apple's fear of the PRC and Iran using any backdoor is a real one.

 

[Revmitchell]

Apple should stand their ground and tell the government to take a hike.

 

[Don]

So is Apple's OS tamper - proof so that nobody can hack it?
Are iPhones THAT secure? Somebody with knowledge pls respond.

No, it's not. And the amount of viruses/malicious software targeting Apple is increasing each year.

What Apple enacted with iOS 8 was encryption. Once you use a passcode on your iPhone (i.e., your lockscreen code), your data is now encrypted based on that personal passcode. Before iOS 8, Apple could--and did, many times--help the government bypass the lock screen. Now, bypassing the lock screen won't work, because the data is still encrypted.

Apple did it because they know people are worried about their personal security on mobile devices.

So what the FBI has asked for, and what the judge involved used a 227-year old law to enact, was to require Apple to create code that would essentially crack (most people would use the term "hack") the phone and disable the encryption (more complicated than that, but that's the gist).

The problem is that Apple believes if they create such a program, they'll become targets of hackers all over the world--including China and terrorists--who would use/modify the program to crack anyone's iPhone.

Note: the ultimate result is that NO phone device company will offer privacy settings on your phone. It may not go quite that far; but if the judge's order is upheld, any phone device company will then be asked to bypass their own privacy settings. It will fall to the consumer--us--to accept that we no longer have any expectation of privacy.

 

[InTheLight]

The latest is that the FBI has said they will allow Apple engineers to work on the phone at Apple's HQ, and will have no knowledge of how Apple accesses the terrorists phone. They only want the information on the phone.

I think this is a reasonable request.

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[Jkdbuck76]

I guess so. Glad I don't have Apple products.

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[Squire Robertsson]

Unless your living in the PRC, Iran, Russia, Moldova, ect.

I guess so. Glad I don't have Apple products.

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[preachinjesus]

I'm an Apple guy, I use their products and enjoy them. While I'm not a fanboy or die-hard, they just make my work and life easier. Anyways, per the OP, this is where I am on this:

Apple should stand their ground and tell the government to take a hike.

Completely agree! The challenge here isn't that Apple's iOS can't be hacked, it absolutely can be hacked, but that the government wants Apple to install a backdoor into all their devices that they, the FBI, can use to get into phones of suspected criminals. From what I've seen, the FBI should've been able to get into the phones of the this couple easily within hours of the tragic events. With some basic hacking tools and software the iOS encryption can be sidestepped and the phone opened up. The FBI isn't really asking for help on this current case, and if they are they need to fire their entire forensic technology department and go hire a new one made up of 20something hackers. What FBI wants to do is place, in proprietary technology a universal security backdoor on all devices that they can utilize whenever someone is under their surveillance.

This is, fundamentally, unAmerican and exactly what the Founders of this nation fought against over 200 years ago.

Under the guise of "security" and "safety" the FBI wishes to remove more of our civil liberties to attempt to provide a measure of information that is, frankly, not in the purview of their agency's reach. They wish to have free access to anyone's information at any time so they can "defend us" from terrible acts. I'm sorry we live in a world where one or two people can easily inflict mass terror on an entire populace. I'm sorry for the families of victims of these kinds of acts. And I'm sorry that there is nothing we can do to stop these kinds of people. But none of this excuses the FBI's request as being unAmerican and against the founding principles of this nation.

If this case, which will probably make it to the Supreme Court, ends up going the FBI's way, we are beyond hope as a nation. Just my opinion.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The latest is that the FBI has said they will allow Apple engineers to work on the phone at Apple's HQ, and will have no knowledge of how Apple accesses the terrorists phone. They only want the information on the phone.

I think this is a reasonable request.

You have two problems here, one in terms of technology and one in terms of law:

Technology
Apple claims that they are not able to crack the phones because the user sets the encryption keys. I know a little about cryptography (I'm not anywhere close to being an expert), but this strikes me as true. Apple has worked for a long time on their security and encryption of data - on both the Macintosh and the devices - and I believe them. This is not a new claim, but one that has been out there for more than a decade for the Macintosh encryption system. I also know a bit of confidential information that confirms Apple's claim.

Legal
If the FBI is asking for Apple to just get the data without them looking, how do they know they have the actual data? How can they establish the chain of evidence if they release the phone and provide no supervisor or monitoring of the process? I have a friend who used to hack computers for the FBI for exactly this kind of issue and he would have to testify in court as to the exact methods he used to extract the data. Moreover, he could not even work on the original hard drive since the data might be damaged by his work - he had to do a brute force copy of all of the bits on the drive and then work on the copy.

Based on the issues with chain of evidence, I doubt the claim by the FBI that they would be willing to take a hands off approach with Apple and accept whatever Apple claims in on the phone - if it is even technologically possible!

 

[Revmitchell]

The latest is that the FBI has said they will allow Apple engineers to work on the phone at Apple's HQ, and will have no knowledge of how Apple accesses the terrorists phone. They only want the information on the phone.

I think this is a reasonable request.

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What I saw reported this morning is that the FBI wants Apple to lose their security feature that requires the phone to shutdown if too many attempts are made to get in.

 

[InTheLight]

What I saw reported this morning is that the FBI wants Apple to lose their security feature that requires the phone to shutdown if to many attempts are made to get in.

Yes. The FBI wants Apple to shut off the ten attempt limit on unsuccessful pass code entries on this phone and this phone only.

 

[InTheLight]

the government wants Apple to install a backdoor into all their devices that they, the FBI, can use to get into phones of suspected criminals.

You sure sound like a fanboi.

From what I've seen, the FBI should've been able to get into the phones of the this couple easily within hours of the tragic events. With some basic hacking tools and software the iOS encryption can be sidestepped and the phone opened up.

You don't know the facts of this case.

The FBI isn't really asking for help on this current case, and if they are they need to fire their entire forensic technology department and go hire a new one made up of 20something hackers. What FBI wants to do is place, in proprietary technology a universal security backdoor on all devices that they can utilize whenever someone is under their surveillance.

I see you've read Apple's PR release.


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[InTheLight]

You have two problems here, one in terms of technology and one in terms of law:

The only problem is your misinformation.



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[Don]

Yes. The FBI wants Apple to shut off the ten attempt limit on unsuccessful pass code entries on this phone and this phone only.

And if Apple does so, then the ROM code they do it with becomes a target. And it won't be "this phone only." It'll be "this phone only...until the next time something happens, and we need you to do it again."

 

[Don]

For those that are talking about cracking the encryption -- it's not as simple as it seems. Yes, the passcode acts as the encryption key; but is the passcode 4 digits? 6 digits? Numbers only, or a mix of numbers and letters? And since we're talking 256-bit AES encryption (the same standard that protects the government's computers -- including the FBI's), even with a supercomputer brute-forcing the passcode combinations, it could take 30 minutes to crack if it's a simple, small passcode; or it could take up to 5 years; or it could take a lifetime.

What the FBI is asking for is to "flash" the motherboard memory to disable the passcode attempt limits. This would allow them to hook the phone up to a supercomputer and ... wait for the correct passcode to be entered (remember: we're talking possibly up to a lifetime to exhaust all the possible passcode combinations). That's it in a nutshell: they want a judge to order a private company to bypass a security feature, so they can wait as long as it takes to get the information off the phone.

And if this occurs, then it will be known that iPhones can be "flashed" to disable the passcode attempt limit, and that Apple has the code ... and then any hacker who wants that ability will be digging through Apple's servers to find the code. Because once you've proven it can be done by hooking a cable to the phone, there are some really smart cookies out there who will be able to figure out how to implement the code over-the-air, or even through a text message.