Appointed To Eternal Life?

[Silverhair]

1 Timothy 2:1-4 - I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who are the "all men" being spoken of? Kings and all those in authority. Yes, God desires even rulers to be saved, not just peasants. This establishes classes of men. It would be like me saying that all cowboys fans are weird. Obviously I'm talking about a group of people because not all people are cowboys fans.

Revelation 5:9 - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Notice, the "us" are believers (the elect). They have been redeemed from out of every kindred, tongue, people, nation. It does not say they have been redeemed in every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, otherwise you'd be a universalist.



I guess you think we're trying to be jerks for no reason.



Again, the John 8:37 says they cannot hear. The assumption that they refused to hear is nowhere to be found. It is unreasonable for folks to get frustrated because the words that they want to be there simply aren't there.



That is a misrepresentation. There is nothing special about me at all. God does not look down the corridors of time and select some to be saved because of anything they do. One who is chosen for salvation is not better than their next door neighbor who is passed over for damnation. It is all the grace of God and that is why there is no grounds for boasting in ourselves.

Romans 9:11 - for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



How does one become "in Him"?

Ephesians 1:4 - according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

He chooses us in Him, not once you choose to be in Him then He chooses you. That's reading the text backwards, my friend.



Another misrepresentation. Anyone who is chosen to be saved will most certainly believe the Gospel message as they experience it in time.

Who are the "all men" being spoken of? Kings and all those in authority. Yes, God desires even rulers to be saved, not just peasants. This establishes classes of men.

"All men" means all men not just select men as calvinist would posit. Are not Kings and those in authority included in all men? We see this pointed out again in Rev 5:9 "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"

I guess you think we're trying to be jerks for no reason.

No, not all of you are trying to be jerks but all of you are misguided. The theology that you are putting forward has a basis in pagan philosophy.

Again, the John 8:37 says they cannot hear. The assumption that they refused to hear is nowhere to be found. It is unreasonable for folks to get frustrated because the words that they want to be there simply aren't there.

That is a misrepresentation. There is nothing special about me at all. God does not look down the corridors of time and select some to be saved because of anything they do. One who is chosen for salvation is not better than their next door neighbor who is passed over for damnation. It is all the grace of God and that is why there is no grounds for boasting in ourselves.

Are you saying that God is not omniscient? That He does not have foreknowledge? God knows all those that will freely place their faith in Him and only those will be saved.
Since calvinist think they were chosen {the elect} before the foundation of the world there must have been something special about them or was God just being arbitrary. The bible tells us that it is those that believe that will be saved but you seem to think you have to be saved before you will believe.

How does one become "in Him"?

The only way to become "in Him" is through the grace of God and we know that "by grace you have been saved through faith" because "after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed" God seals us in Him by the Holy Spirit. As we are told it is by "the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" So we clearly see that God saves those that believe in Him, no faith no salvation.

Another misrepresentation. Anyone who is chosen to be saved will most certainly believe the Gospel message as they experience it in time.

There you go again saying that there is a special group chosen before time when the bible does not support your view. The bible say Christ died for the whole world "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world" and God did this because "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth". Why do you disagree with this? Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong when He had the disciples write these things down?

You keep giving me the same calvinist arguments that have failed time and again as they are not biblical.

 

[Brightfame52]

So you have people saved that have not believed the gospel message as according to you they cannot understand the message until they are in Christ and to be in Christ means you are saved. You do have a strange way of reading scripture.

If you would just learn to read verses in context you would not make such foolish claims as you do.

Yes people are saved before they believe, because they cant hear the word of God until they are of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes people are saved before they believe, because they cant hear the word of God until they are of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So you deny scripture, got it. Why do you continue to push your errant theology? Do you not believe the word of God. Do you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong?

Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

One has to hear the message before they can believe it and you have to believe it before you will be saved.

God keeps saying you have to hear first then believe you disagree so the question becomes whom should we believe God or you.

 

[Mikoo]

It is really sad to see people that abuse the word of God such as you and @Rye are doing.

It is not that the Jews could not hear it is that they refused to hear/believe what Christ was saying. Context shows the error of your thinking.

But you will continue to live in your bubble as it makes you feel special. The arrogance to think that God chose you over all those reprobates. There must be something special about you. You can't say it was an arbitrary choice so there must have been a reason. What made you standout so as to be selected for salvation?

But you will continue to live in your bubble as it makes you feel special. The arrogance to think that you chose God (He didn't choose you) over all those reprobates who didn't. There must be something special about you. God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9, but apparently that doesn't apply to you, so there must have been a reason you were able to choose God. What made you standout over all the other reprobates in that YOU chose God and they didn't, when God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9?

 

[Brightfame52]

So you deny scripture, got it. Why do you continue to push your errant theology? Do you not believe the word of God. Do you think the Holy Spirit got it wrong?

Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,...

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

One has to hear the message before they can believe it and you have to believe it before you will be saved.

God keeps saying you have to hear first then believe you disagree so the question becomes whom should we believe God or you.

Yes people are saved before they believe, because they cant hear the word of God until they are of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

One is saved in order to be called 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Silverhair]

But you will continue to live in your bubble as it makes you feel special. The arrogance to think that you chose God (He didn't choose you) over all those reprobates who didn't. There must be something special about you. God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9, but apparently that doesn't apply to you, so there must have been a reason you were able to choose God. What made you standout over all the other reprobates in that YOU chose God and they didn't, when God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9?

No I am not so arrogant as to think that I am special in some way. The only thing that I did was meet the condition that God set. FAITH IN HIM

You can ignore scripture all you want but it does not change the reality of salvation does it.

I would tell you that you need to learn to read verses in context but I doubt that would do you any good as you continue to show that it is not scripture that you believe but what someone has told you that scripture says.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes people are saved before they believe, because they cant hear the word of God until they are of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

One is saved in order to be called 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You have had your theological errors pointed out to you numerous times and yet you cling to them.

Someday perhaps the light of truth will shine on you by you may, by that time, be to blind to see it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is how many of the mainstream committee based English translations render Acts 13:48...

KJV - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
NKJV - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
NIV - When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
ESV - And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
NASB - When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.
NLT - When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

Notice how scholars have translated this verse with great consistency.

ὅσοι (hosoi) As many as - a correlative pronoun, meaning there is a limit on the number of those who believe.

τεταγμένοι (tetagmenoi) appointed - a perfect passive, meaning someone else is doing the appointing.

The original language does not allow any room for human action. You cannot make the claim that they appointed themselves to eternal life.

Appointment to eternal life results in belief. If anyone does not believe, they were not appointed to eternal life.

This is a straightforward statement that is consistent with the rest of scripture.

John 8:47 - He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This does not say that they refuse to hear God's words, but that they cannot hear God's words. If anyone is of God, that means they can hear God's words because they have been appointed to eternal life.

Since the unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions and sins” (Ephesians 2:1), he is incapable of reaching out to God or responding to the gospel of Jesus Christ on his own. “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:10–11). This state of total depravity makes the effectual calling of God necessary to give anyone the opportunity for salvation.

Jesus said, “For many are invited, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14). In this statement, Jesus distinguishes between the general call that everyone receives by hearing the gospel and the effectual call that leads to salvation. The effectual call is also taught in passages such as Romans 1:6, where Paul greets the believers as those “who are called to belong to Jesus Christ”; and Acts 16:14, where Luke says of Lydia that “the Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.” The effectual call, therefore, is God’s action toward the elect, those whom He chose in Christ “before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless. . . . He predestined [them] for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:4–5).

The general call, on the other hand, is for all of humanity, not just the elect. The famous passage, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16), portrays God’s general revelation to everyone in the world. The gospel is available to everyone, but, because of humanity’s sinful nature and total depravity, no one will turn to God without God first impressing Himself on them.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have had your theological errors pointed out to you numerous times and yet you cling to them.

Someday perhaps the light of truth will shine on you by you may, by that time, be to blind to see it.

Maybe God will open your eyes to see this,

People are saved before they believe, because they cant hear the word of God until they are of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

One is saved in order to be called 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

No I am not so arrogant as to think that I am special in some way. The only thing that I did was meet the condition that God set. FAITH IN HIM

Thats boasting in what you did ! " The only thing that I did was meet the condition "

A person who is really trusting in Christ would say that Jesus Christ met all the conditions with God on my behalf to save me.

 

[Brightfame52]

Folks to say one was saved because they met a condition God set is saying that God didn't consider one dead in sin and totally unable to meet any conditions spiritually.

Yet God sees all of us spiritually dead Eph 2:1-3 and not even able to seek God Rom 3:10-12

 

[Rye]

Are not Kings and those in authority included in all men?

Kings are included in all men but not all men are kings.

The theology that you are putting forward has a basis in pagan philosophy.

Can you back up that claim with evidence?

Are you saying that God is not omniscient? That He does not have foreknowledge? God knows all those that will freely place their faith in Him and only those will be saved.

So in other words, He has to look down the corridors of time, learn about how His free creatures will act and then He can act based on our choices. Sorry, I found too many holes with that line of thinking that not only destroys God's omniscience but also destroys the meaning of grace.

The only way to become "in Him" is through the grace of God and we know that "by grace you have been saved through faith" because "after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed" God seals us in Him by the Holy Spirit. As we are told it is by "the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" So we clearly see that God saves those that believe in Him, no faith no salvation.

It is by grace anyone is saved through faith, not anyone who chooses to have faith is then saved by grace. It is the power of God unto salvation, not the power of men unto salvation. Another example of reading something backwards.

Why do you disagree with this? Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong when He had the disciples write these things down?

I used to hold the same views you had only a short time ago. When I submitted to what the scriptures say, there was tremendous peace within my soul that I no longer have to struggle with difficult texts by inserting words that aren't there. I can let it say what it says and it really opened my eyes to how beautifully consistent it is from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Mikoo]

No I am not so arrogant as to think that I am special in some way.

Of course you do. The arrogance to think that you chose God (He didn't choose you) over all those reprobates who didn't. There must be something special about you. God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9, but apparently that doesn't apply to you, so there must have been a reason you were able to choose God. What made you standout over all the other reprobates in that YOU chose God and they didn't, when God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9?

The only thing that I did was meet the condition that God set. FAITH IN HIM

And just to think, all without His help!

You can ignore scripture all you want but it does not change the reality of salvation does it.

You can ignore scripture (Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9) all you want but it does not change the reality of salvation does it.

I would tell you that you need to learn to read verses in context but I doubt that would do you any good as you continue to show that it is not scripture that you believe but what someone has told you that scripture says.

I would tell you that you need to learn to read verses in context but I doubt that would do you any good as you continue to show that it is not scripture that you believe but what someone has told you that scripture says.

 

[Silverhair]

Kings are included in all men but not all men are kings.

Should I be impressed, how long did it take you to figure that out?
Still doers not alter what the bible says does it.
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved

Can you back up that claim with evidence?

Yes.

So in other words, He has to look down the corridors of time, learn about how His free creatures will act and then He can act based on our choices. Sorry, I found too many holes with that line of thinking that not only destroys God's omniscience but also destroys the meaning of grace.

Where do you come up with this “corridors of time”? Do you not believe the God is omniscient? God knows you will freely trust in Him without forcing them to trust in Him. God does not have to drag people to Himself as calvinists seem to think.

It is by grace anyone is saved through faith, not anyone who chooses to have faith is then saved by grace. It is the power of God unto salvation, not the power of men unto salvation. Another example of reading something backwards.

Just as I said and the bible also says we hear the gospel message we believe the gospel message and God saves us. That is not making God saves us that is God saving us because we have met the condition that He set, FAITH IN HIM.

Now the calvinist would have a person saved before they even believe in God as He has to give them that faith to believe after they are saved. So as you can see it is the calvinist view that is the prime example of reading something backwards

I used to hold the same views you had only a short time ago. When I submitted to what the scriptures say, there was tremendous peace within my soul that I no longer have to struggle with difficult texts by inserting words that aren't there. I can let it say what it says and it really opened my eyes to how beautifully consistent it is from Genesis to Revelation.

If you had actually submitted to the word of God then you would not be holding to the views that you have expressed in your posts.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course you do. The arrogance to think that you chose God (He didn't choose you) over all those reprobates who didn't. There must be something special about you. God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9, but apparently that doesn't apply to you, so there must have been a reason you were able to choose God. What made you standout over all the other reprobates in that YOU chose God and they didn't, when God says Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9?

And just to think, all without His help!

You can ignore scripture (Romans 3:10-12, 2 Thess 2:13, Rom 9:23, Eph 1:4 and Eph 2:8-9) all you want but it does not change the reality of salvation does it.


I would tell you that you need to learn to read verses in context but I doubt that would do you any good as you continue to show that it is not scripture that you believe but what someone has told you that scripture says.

I do find that most calvinist are not very original in their posts, you keep using that some old tired lines.

If you want to hold to a philosophy that has it's roots in pagan philosophy then go for it but please do not pretend that your view is biblical. What started with Augustine and was carried forward by Calvin and later calvinists is just a shadow of the truth.

The calvinist view contains just enough biblical truth to fool the unaware. Those that ignore the foundations of that teaching will continue to be misled.

 

[Rye]

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved

You understand it to mean all people without exception. I understand it to mean all of a particular group of people. Fine. We're just not going to see eye to eye on this.

Yes.

Please provide some evidence if you want me to give any thought to the claim that my theology is rooted in pagan philosophy.

Where do you come up with this “corridors of time”? Do you not believe the God is omniscient? God knows you will freely trust in Him without forcing them to trust in Him. God does not have to drag people to Himself as calvinists seem to think.

We can call it whatever you'd like, call it the "tunnels of time" if that suits you better. The point is, God is not omniscient if He has to learn something after He creates, that includes learning who would have faith in Him before they become elect. We won't be seeing eye to eye on this either.

Just as I said and the bible also says we hear the gospel message we believe the gospel message and God saves us. That is not making God saves us that is God saving us because we have met the condition that He set, FAITH IN HIM.

Please consider the gravity of the assertion that we have to meet a condition before God saves us. Faith is the proof that we were chosen to be saved in eternity past. Initially it may seem like we made the decision but the reality is that faith comes from God. I have tried my best to be as clear as I can so now I'll leave it to you.

If you had actually submitted to the word of God then you would not be holding to the views that you have expressed in your posts.

Because I came to understand that the reformed position is the only position that allows the scriptures to be consistent with itself and the only position that can defend against the Roman Catholic Church. If you can present something better, I'm all ears. So far I'm not convinced.

 

[Mikoo]

I do find that most calvinist are not very original in their posts, you keep using that some old tired lines.

Says the pot...

If you want to hold to a philosophy that has it's roots in pagan philosophy then go for it but please do not pretend that your view is biblical.

LOL. Please do not pretend your view is Biblical

What started with Augustine and was carried forward by Calvin and later calvinists is just a shadow of the truth.

Don't care about Augustine or Calvin...talk about the same old tired lines...

The calvinist view contains just enough biblical truth to fool the unaware.

Good thing I'm not a Calvinist.

Those that ignore the foundations of that teaching will continue to be misled.

Don't care about his teachings.

 

[Silverhair]

Please provide some evidence if you want me to give any thought to the claim that my theology is rooted in pagan philosophy.

Since they updated this web site nothing seems to work. I tried to do a search for Manicheanism or augustine but it will not show any of my prior posts.

When I look for my prior posts they are listed but can not search them. Give it a try as I made a number of posts regarding the pagan basis of calvinism.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I was earnestly seeking the Lord, I had no idea that the Lord was seeking me. I do not think that the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when I first received these truths in my own soul - when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my soul as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge through having , once for all, the clue to the truth of God.
One weeknight, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, "How did you come to be a Christian?" I sought the Lord. "But how did you come to seek the Lord?" The truth flashed into my mind in an instant - I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, "How came you to pray?" I was induced to do so by reading the Scriptures. "How came you to read the Scriptures?" I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."'
[C.H. Spurgeon, from A Defence of Calvinism, Banner of Truth Trust, 2008]

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

One has to hear the message before they can believe it and you have to believe it before you will be saved.

Yet how can one hear spiritually if they aren't already of God as Jesus says Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Then what message did you hear that caused the trust in Christ ? AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation..." (Eph. 1:13). To trust in Christ one must know what He has done and for whom He has done it. How this could be done without knowledge of election that God gave His Son the people He was to die for !

And how could it be the Gospel of your salvation if you are not already saved ?