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Are Adam/Eve in Heaven?
- Thread starter Dr. Bob
- Start date
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Wazup dog?webdog said:
I think he said not to look for Adam and Eve in heaven because there is not mention of them in Hebrews heros of Faith nor does it ever mention that they are repentant. He's thinking they are apostates.
Lukasaurus
Member
Allan said:
I know it's not essential. THe first post on page 4 said I was being sarcastic (some people do get really riled up over it), and I also explain what I believe the great deep is at the start of page 4 too.
God bless
Luke
Lukasaurus said:
So was Ahaziah 22 or 42 when he began his reign according to the KJV translators?
2Ki 8:26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.
2Ch 22:2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
Lukasaurus
Member
Well I don't know, but that is what every single hebrew manuscript says, and the modern versions have no authority to change it whatsoever. Every modern version that changes either of those verses does so with NO MANUSCRIPT authority. (It says 20, in some syriac and greek translations, but still not 22).
That question is not an issue with the King James Bible, but an issue you have with original inspiration. You can take that one up with God. It is not a translation error. I don't know the meaning of it, or the reason why the Holy Spirit gives two different ages. I could guess, but I will just trust God on that one.
If you believe that is an error, you are free to do so. You aren't just attacking the King James Bible by saying it is an error. You are attacking original inspiration and preservation and saying that God's word is in error, even in Hebrew.
That question is not an issue with the King James Bible, but an issue you have with original inspiration. You can take that one up with God. It is not a translation error. I don't know the meaning of it, or the reason why the Holy Spirit gives two different ages. I could guess, but I will just trust God on that one.
If you believe that is an error, you are free to do so. You aren't just attacking the King James Bible by saying it is an error. You are attacking original inspiration and preservation and saying that God's word is in error, even in Hebrew.
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I don't know if Adam and Eve are in heaven.
But this I know.
Enoch was brought into the presence of God, did not pass through physical death.
So was Elijah.
Moses also, by implication, was in heaven, and knew Christ there, for at the Mount of Transfiguration, the Bible says he spoke to Christ regarding His demise.
If God's people are in all ages, tongues, kindred, and nation, then there are those who died BEFORE the cross and OUTSIDE of the Biblical lands that are likewise in heaven.
None of these were redeemed by the blood of bulls, sheep and lamb and other sacrificial animals, none of these were accepted of God because of their own righteousnesses, most especially His people who were not part of national Israel.
Mystery ?
not quite.
Because one of the titles of Christ is The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,
If Adam and Eve are among His elect, then like all His elect before the cross His blood as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world covered their sins and became the basis of their redemption.
But this I know.
Enoch was brought into the presence of God, did not pass through physical death.
So was Elijah.
Moses also, by implication, was in heaven, and knew Christ there, for at the Mount of Transfiguration, the Bible says he spoke to Christ regarding His demise.
If God's people are in all ages, tongues, kindred, and nation, then there are those who died BEFORE the cross and OUTSIDE of the Biblical lands that are likewise in heaven.
None of these were redeemed by the blood of bulls, sheep and lamb and other sacrificial animals, none of these were accepted of God because of their own righteousnesses, most especially His people who were not part of national Israel.
Mystery ?
not quite.
Because one of the titles of Christ is The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,
If Adam and Eve are among His elect, then like all His elect before the cross His blood as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world covered their sins and became the basis of their redemption.
According to the King James Bible Commentary:Lukasaurus said:
"His age of forty and two years is impossible in light of 21:20. It is probably a scribal mistake for twenty-two years. (cf II Kings 8:26)"
So according to this, it wasn't a translational error, but a scribal error. These things happen.
FYI, the NKJV also has his age as 42.
Marcia
Active Member
Aaron said:
A lot of people are not held up as examples of faith but this does not mean they were not saved. This is an argument from silence and is therefore invalid.
Secondly, Adam is said to be a "type" of Christ, and I find it hard to swallow an unsaved man being this.
Third, God made the sacrifice and covered Adam and Eve, which is a picture of God's grace and the covering we can now have from Christ through faith. The first blood sacrifice was made by God, and is therefore effective.
Lukasaurus
Member
Amy.G said:According to the King James Bible Commentary:
"His age of forty and two years is impossible in light of 21:20. It is probably a scribal mistake for twenty-two years. (cf II Kings 8:26)"
So according to this, it wasn't a translational error, but a scribal error. These things happen.
FYI, the NKJV also has his age as 42.
The King James Bible commentary is NOT the King James Bible. It is the opinion of a man or men.
Why does every Hebrew manuscript contains this supposed error? The scribes must have been pretty careless for noone to pick it up and correct it for several hundred years.
This is not an error. It is one of those things that we cannot understand. I still trust God in this issue, and do not put much reliance on the words of men to correct the Bible.
These things don't happen with God's preservation.
And I didn't say all modern versions change it. I said the ones that do do it without authority to do so
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html
Translation Errors
Here is a partial listing of King James Version translation errors:
Genesis 1:2 should read "And the earth became without form . . . ." The word translated "was" is hayah, and denotes a condition different than a former condition, as in Genesis 19:26.
Genesis 10:9 should read " . . . Nimrod the mighty hunter in place of [in opposition to] the LORD." The word "before" is incorrect and gives the connotation that Nimrod was a good guy, which is false.
Leviticus 16:8, 10, 26 in the KJV is "scapegoat" which today has the connotation of someone who is unjustly blamed for other's sins. The Hebrew is Azazel, which means "one removed or separated." The Azazel goal represents Satan, who is no scapegoat. He is guilty of his part in our sins.
Deuteronomy 24:1, "then let him" should be "and he." As the Savior explained in Matthew 19, Moses did not command divorcement. This statute is regulating the permission of divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.
2 Kings 2:23, should be "young men", not "little children."
Isaiah 65:17 should be "I am creating [am about to create] new heavens and new earth . . . ."
Ezekiel 20:25 should read "Wherefore I permitted them, or gave them over to, [false] statutes that are not good, and judgments whereby they should not live." God's laws are good, perfect and right. This verse shows that since Israel rejected God's laws, He allowed them to hurt themselves by following false man made customs and laws.
Daniel 8:14 is correct in the margin, which substitutes "evening morning" for "days." Too bad William Miller didn't realize this.
Malachi 4:6 should read " . . . lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction." "Curse" doesn't give the proper sense here. Same word used in Zechariah 14:11.
Matthew 5:48 should be "Become ye therefore perfect" rather than "be ye therefore perfect." "Perfect" here means "spiritually mature." Sanctification is a process of overcoming with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 24:22 needs an additional word to clarify the meaning. It should say "there should no flesh be saved alive."
Matthew 27:49 omits text which was in the original. Moffatt correctly adds it, while the RSV puts it in a footnote: "And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood." The Savior's death came when a soldier pierced His side, Revelation 1:7.
Matthew 28:1, "In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week . . ." should be translated literally, "Now late on Sabbath, as it was getting dusk toward the first day of the week . . . ." The Sabbath does not end at dawn but at dusk.
Luke 2:14 should say, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of God's good pleasure or choosing." That is, there will be peace on earth among men who have God's good will in their hearts.
Luke 14:26 has the unfortunate translation of the Greek word miseo, Strong's #3404, as "hate", when it should be rendered "love less by comparison." We are not to hate our parents and family!
John 1:31, 33 should say "baptize" or "baptizing IN water" not with water. Pouring or sprinkling with water is not the scriptural method of baptism, but only thorough immersion in water.
John 1:17 is another instance of a poor preposition. "By" should be "through": "For the law was given by [through] Moses . . . ." Moses did not proclaim his law, but God's Law.
John 13:2 should be "And during supper" (RSV) rather than "And supper being ended" (KJV).
Acts 12:4 has the inaccurate word "Easter" which should be rendered "Passover." The Greek word is pascha which is translated correctly as Passover in Matthew 26:2, etc.
1 Corinthians 1:18 should be: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God", rather than "perish" and "are saved." Likewise, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 should be "are perishing" rather than "perish."
1 Corinthians 15:29 should be: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the hope of the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the hope of the dead?"
2 Corinthians 6:2 should be "a day of salvation", instead of "the day of salvation." This is a quote from Isaiah 49:8, which is correct. The day of salvation is not the same for each individual. The firstfruits have their day of salvation during this life. The rest in the second resurrection.
1 Timothy 4:8 should say, "For bodily exercise profiteth for a little time: but godliness in profitable unto all things . . . ."
1 Timothy 6:10 should be, "For the love of money is a [not the] root of all evil . . . ."
Hebrews 4:8 should be "Joshua" rather than "Jesus", although these two words are Hebrew and Greek equivalents.
Hebrews 4:9 should read, "There remaineth therefore a keeping of a sabbath to the people of God."
Hebrews 9:28 is out of proper order in the King James. It should be: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them without sin that look for him shall he appear the second time unto salvation."
1 John 5:7-8 contains additional text which was added to the original. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The italicized text was added to the original manuscripts. Most modern translations agree that this was an uninspired addition to the Latin Vulgate to support the unscriptural trinity doctrine.
Revelation 14:4 should be "a firstfruits", because the 144,000 are not all the firstfruits.
Revelation 20:4-5 in the KJV is a little confusing until you realize that the sentence "This is the first resurrection." in verse five refers back to "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" in verse four.
Revelation 20:10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [correction: should be 'were cast' because the beast and false prophet were mortal human beings who were burned up in the lake of fire 1,000 years previous to this time, Revelation 19:20], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The point is that Satan will be cast into the same lake of fire into which the beast and false prophet were cast a thousand years previously.
Revelation 22:2 should be "health" rather than "healing."
Back to the thread, how does this verse fit:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Translation Errors
Here is a partial listing of King James Version translation errors:
Genesis 1:2 should read "And the earth became without form . . . ." The word translated "was" is hayah, and denotes a condition different than a former condition, as in Genesis 19:26.
Genesis 10:9 should read " . . . Nimrod the mighty hunter in place of [in opposition to] the LORD." The word "before" is incorrect and gives the connotation that Nimrod was a good guy, which is false.
Leviticus 16:8, 10, 26 in the KJV is "scapegoat" which today has the connotation of someone who is unjustly blamed for other's sins. The Hebrew is Azazel, which means "one removed or separated." The Azazel goal represents Satan, who is no scapegoat. He is guilty of his part in our sins.
Deuteronomy 24:1, "then let him" should be "and he." As the Savior explained in Matthew 19, Moses did not command divorcement. This statute is regulating the permission of divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.
2 Kings 2:23, should be "young men", not "little children."
Isaiah 65:17 should be "I am creating [am about to create] new heavens and new earth . . . ."
Ezekiel 20:25 should read "Wherefore I permitted them, or gave them over to, [false] statutes that are not good, and judgments whereby they should not live." God's laws are good, perfect and right. This verse shows that since Israel rejected God's laws, He allowed them to hurt themselves by following false man made customs and laws.
Daniel 8:14 is correct in the margin, which substitutes "evening morning" for "days." Too bad William Miller didn't realize this.
Malachi 4:6 should read " . . . lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction." "Curse" doesn't give the proper sense here. Same word used in Zechariah 14:11.
Matthew 5:48 should be "Become ye therefore perfect" rather than "be ye therefore perfect." "Perfect" here means "spiritually mature." Sanctification is a process of overcoming with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 24:22 needs an additional word to clarify the meaning. It should say "there should no flesh be saved alive."
Matthew 27:49 omits text which was in the original. Moffatt correctly adds it, while the RSV puts it in a footnote: "And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood." The Savior's death came when a soldier pierced His side, Revelation 1:7.
Matthew 28:1, "In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week . . ." should be translated literally, "Now late on Sabbath, as it was getting dusk toward the first day of the week . . . ." The Sabbath does not end at dawn but at dusk.
Luke 2:14 should say, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of God's good pleasure or choosing." That is, there will be peace on earth among men who have God's good will in their hearts.
Luke 14:26 has the unfortunate translation of the Greek word miseo, Strong's #3404, as "hate", when it should be rendered "love less by comparison." We are not to hate our parents and family!
John 1:31, 33 should say "baptize" or "baptizing IN water" not with water. Pouring or sprinkling with water is not the scriptural method of baptism, but only thorough immersion in water.
John 1:17 is another instance of a poor preposition. "By" should be "through": "For the law was given by [through] Moses . . . ." Moses did not proclaim his law, but God's Law.
John 13:2 should be "And during supper" (RSV) rather than "And supper being ended" (KJV).
Acts 12:4 has the inaccurate word "Easter" which should be rendered "Passover." The Greek word is pascha which is translated correctly as Passover in Matthew 26:2, etc.
1 Corinthians 1:18 should be: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing foolishness; but unto us which are being saved it is the power of God", rather than "perish" and "are saved." Likewise, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 should be "are perishing" rather than "perish."
1 Corinthians 15:29 should be: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the hope of the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the hope of the dead?"
2 Corinthians 6:2 should be "a day of salvation", instead of "the day of salvation." This is a quote from Isaiah 49:8, which is correct. The day of salvation is not the same for each individual. The firstfruits have their day of salvation during this life. The rest in the second resurrection.
1 Timothy 4:8 should say, "For bodily exercise profiteth for a little time: but godliness in profitable unto all things . . . ."
1 Timothy 6:10 should be, "For the love of money is a [not the] root of all evil . . . ."
Hebrews 4:8 should be "Joshua" rather than "Jesus", although these two words are Hebrew and Greek equivalents.
Hebrews 4:9 should read, "There remaineth therefore a keeping of a sabbath to the people of God."
Hebrews 9:28 is out of proper order in the King James. It should be: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them without sin that look for him shall he appear the second time unto salvation."
1 John 5:7-8 contains additional text which was added to the original. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The italicized text was added to the original manuscripts. Most modern translations agree that this was an uninspired addition to the Latin Vulgate to support the unscriptural trinity doctrine.
Revelation 14:4 should be "a firstfruits", because the 144,000 are not all the firstfruits.
Revelation 20:4-5 in the KJV is a little confusing until you realize that the sentence "This is the first resurrection." in verse five refers back to "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" in verse four.
Revelation 20:10, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [correction: should be 'were cast' because the beast and false prophet were mortal human beings who were burned up in the lake of fire 1,000 years previous to this time, Revelation 19:20], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The point is that Satan will be cast into the same lake of fire into which the beast and false prophet were cast a thousand years previously.
Revelation 22:2 should be "health" rather than "healing."
Back to the thread, how does this verse fit:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
I an no where near a KJVO however, anyone with a medium level of knowledge regarding Greek and Hebrew can see most of the above is made up (concocted) drivel. The majority are not 'errors' at all but a difference in translated words specific to a era which understood the words meanings differently than we do. It doesn't take a scholar nor a theologian to see or come to realize this.Grasshopper said:
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From the Christian Courier: (it gives 2 possiblities both your view)Grasshopper said:
Here is another from the Bereans:
This isis not out of the norm of Hebrew writing and is why many notable scholars agree this is most likely a explaination. Could it be a copiest errot - maybe but then I would take you back to this point already stated here-in:
"If it should be objected that God could have protected the scribes from any and all mistakes, one need only remind himself that such a precise oversight would have involved a miraculous influence upon the scribes across the centuries. Clearly, that was not Jehovah’s plan for the exercise of miraculous phenomena."
Jim1999 said:
And I have no quarrel with that, Jim.
However, understanding that principle belongs to those of us who have heard the gospel story, read the Bible, and sat under gospel instruction.
Obviously, not all of God's people will hear the gospel story, or read the Bible, or sit under gospel instruction.
Because the responsibility of spreading the gospel and preaching the good news of a finished redemption was given to mortals, through the apostles, who cannot be physically and chronologically present everywhere, which shows the folly of connecting the act of regeneration and the efficacy of Christ's blood unto redemption and eternal salvation, to the ability of men to obey this responsibility, and shows why it is the Holy Spirit alone who regenerates where He wants, when He wants, and whom He chose, and the Son who finished the work of redemption for all His people in all times, ages, kindred and tongue.
Also, being mortals, our movement is forwards through the plane of time, and we cannot go backwards or sidewards in time to reach those who were born before the cross.
And then, with regards to Adam and Eve being in heaven or not, (and I don't know if somebody pointed this out already, if so please y'all forgive the redundancy), the first individuals who heard the promise of a coming Redeemer were Adam and Eve, and I suppose God wasn't just engaging in senile ramblings as a result of disappointment over two corrupted individuals.
2Ch 9:25
And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
1Ki 4:26
And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2Sa 24:9
And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
1Ch 21:5
And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.