Are Ananias and Sapphira in heaven?

The man healed at the pool

Brother Bob

Hi!! Thanks a bunch!! (boy, they really changed the look of this place)

Hey guess what? You know my foot problem I told you about? it turns out they are nearly sure its a pinched nerve in my back and in about 12 days they are going to give me a shot in my back to fix it. Yipeeeeeee! I will be so happy...



gekko, Jesus also said that to the guy who was healed at the pool..


Jn:5:14: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

 

What about the justice system:

Luke 23:40-41 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
--Even the thieves on the cross knew that they were condemned for sins or crimes that they had committed, sins against the government of their time, and had to pay the penalty for them. The penalty for the crimes against the government was death by crucifixion. The thief on the cross accepted that punishmemt. He said: And we indeed justly for we receive the due reward of of our deeds.

But the Bible says concerning our crimes against God:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--This speaks of eternal death as contrasted to eternal life in the latter part of the verse. Eternal death is penalty, a wage, I cannot pay. It is separation from God in a place called Hell for all eternity. More accurately I can pay it, put I don't want to accept a fate so terrible as that. In many crimes there is a way out. Sometimes you have a choice. The penalty can be paid by a fine rather than jail sentence. The death penalty can be reduced to life imprisonment and hard labor instead of death. There have been some cases where someone else has even taken the punishment upon himself and has let the guilty one gone free. But the penalty has been thus paid.

It is in the last example that Jesus paid the penalty for our sin. He took our place on the cross and suffered for us--the just for the unjust. He the holy one, for us the unholy. He the sinless one for us the sinners. He was perfect; we are not. He suffered for men of all ages for He was God and could transcend all ages.
A prisoner has the option of accepting a pardon from the governor. He can accept it or reject. Most accept it.
A sinner has the option of acccepting Christ's offer of forgiveness. He can accept it or reject it. Many are proud and reject it. Those who accept it are pardoned forever. The governor's pardon is forever. The criminal can never be condemned on those same charges again. Likewise Christ's padon is forever and ever. The sinner can never be condemned on the charges of those sins (past, present, and future,) again. He died and paid the penalty for them all.
There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none at all.
DHK

 

Nope thats not what it says...

There is no longer any codemnation ONLY for those who cease walking in the flesh.


Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

Claudia, I quoted the applcable part of the verse.
I am not in the flesh. I am not walking after the flesh. I am a child of Christ. I am sorry if you apply this verse to yourself and therefore must conclude that you are not a child of Christ.
DHK

 

DHK

But the same passage says this:

Romans 8:

13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Paul goes through that entire thing bout walking in the flesh verses walking in the Spirit then he says its only those who walk in the Spirit who are the sons of God.

so are you saying you dont have to mortify the deeds of the body because you are ALREADY a child of God?

 

DHK said "The criminal can never be condemned on those same charges again."

he can't?
if i go and murder someone. then go to jail for 2 years... then im let out because i accept the pardon... and then murder another person... am i legible to recieve punishment for that murder?

oh yes indeed.
---
the fact is... when we accept the payment Christ has payed for us breaking the law - and we are set free from prison - we love Him so much - and desire not to break the law anymore - because for us to love Him - we keep the law - for if we keep not the law - back in jail we go.
but a true christian will not break the law. not out of willfulness. he hates sin. and does not want any part in it. yet gives into temptation. and falls into sin. yet the Father forgives us because he knows its not us - but our sinful nature that has sinned - our flesh has sinned. if we walk in the Spirit. we will not sin.

throw stones at me if you will - but its biblical.

 

I can take you verse by verse through that chapter. If at any time you concede that you are of the flesh, I will conclude that you are unsaved, unregenerate.

Paul makes it clear:
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You are either in the family of the devil and of the flesh;
or in the family of God, and belong to Christ because you have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you.
Which choice have you made? I know where I stand.

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have commited unto him against that day.
Do you know?
DHK

 

same

Heavenly Pilgrim,

You said...

Both.

Because of the fact that I have embraced Christ by faith, I am saved and 100% secure for heaven. And I also know that to be true by the absolute knowledge that Almighty God is not a liar.

If Gods says that "There is now therefore no condemnation" for those who have embraced Christ..(and He does say that to us).., that that means that being condemned is no longer an option for those who are in Christ.

True.

Wait a minute. You arent making an ounce of sense. You just said that all of our sins will be in the past when we who are born of the Spirit stand before Him, and they will be completly atoned for.

Now you are saying we dont know about the sins of our future. Our God has told us that He has...

God is going so far as to refer to every sin ever commited by every single one of His people in the singular. Every single sin ever commited by every one of His people is simply referred to as "the iniquity of us all"

Past...present...future. All of them have been where place upon Christ 2000 years ago.

Our eternal destiny is so secure that God tells us in Ephesians...

And in Collosians...

The scriptures tell us that even now we are already considered by God to be already seated with Christ in heaven!

And it says right after that in Colossians...

God does not tell us to put off those things in order to be included in heaven, but rather because WE ALREADY ARE INCLUDED IN HEAVEN!

Its the same principle as in Ephesians, where God encourged the Ephesians..(and us as well) to put off the things they were doing...lying, stealing fornication etc...because they once were of the darkness, but now they are "light in the Lord". He admonishes them to start living in a way that is consitant with who...they...already...are....

Totally secure children of God.

But as I have shown you, God already sees us as bieng "seated in the heavenlies."

It appears to me that He already has.

God bless,

Mike

 

same

Claudia,

1st of all, I'm very glad to read that you could be coming to the end of your foot problems. Praise God! \o/!

No. But that is the primary...not the only...the primary purpose of the Law.

Yes. Very surprised "professing" christians. They never were born again. So, of course all of their sins and failings will indeed be held against them.

We become an "overcomer" when we embrace Christ.

God is not saying anything about sending them to hell. Only that they could become unprofitable if they contiune as they are doing up to that time.

Notice He says...

That goes right along with Hebrews where we are told that if we are without Gods discipline in our lives, we are ilegitimate and not really children of His.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

This has been the only thing that actually makes sense to me as being true that the "liberals" have posted concerning this subject that I have ever read.

It is actually convincing.. raying: Please dont let them do any more like this, or I might become of one "THEM" ahhhhhhhhhh NOOOOOOO!!!

Good job, Mike...

 

D28guy... it almost seems like you are saying that... once we become christians - we are secure and going to heaven. doesn't matter what we do - if we repent - the Lord will forgive us... we are going to heaven.

and yet - no sin will be allowed in heaven. so are we to ask for forgiveness just before we die? not that i think you're saying that.
i see you saying that all our sins are forgiven - no need to worry about them now - because there is no condemnation to those that embrace Christ.

if this is what you are saying - from what i've read this is what i see you are saying - if not. please correct me.

 

same

Gekko,

I said...

And you said...

Gekko, the christians in Ephesus were lying, stealing, comitting fornication, and experiencing many other problems with sin.

Yet God (through Paul) called them "saints" and told them to get their act together because...

The scriptures tell us...

Why would we need an advocate for when we sin, if we never sin after being born again.

Let me ask you this. Have YOU been sinlessly perfect since you have been born again?

Blessings,

Mike

 

no i havn't.

but why deny what the bible says Mike?

God calls us to be Holy as he is Holy. be ye perfect. to have no sin.
is that impossible? no. i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

do i sin? against my will yes.

 

same...

Claudia,

DHK has probably already responded, and probably bettere than I can, but I cant help "butting in" sometimes...

DHK quoted and said...

And you said...

Thats not what it says. You changed it a bit. It actually says...

It never says we will ever completly "cease" sometimes walking after the flesh.

Born again people do walk "after the Spirit" as their basis for living. We have the Holy Spirit alive in us, acting as a conduit for the Lord Jesus Christ to live through us.


But we never get to when we are "perfect" in that way of living. We will always have the "war" going on between the Spirit and the flesh. It will be that way until our homecoming.


God bless,


Mike

 

Hi DHK,
Communication is an art of which I am but a poor student. In the prison illustration, I was only trying to get across a couple of things. First, that works can be clearly thought of in two distinct senses, that for the sake of or one indicating merit, and one thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ indicating the mere meeting a condition and not meritorious in any way. James clearly taught that faith without works is dead, and that Abraham was not justified by faith alone but by his obedience to God’s instructions. Paul taught in Galatians and Romans that we are saved by faith apart from works, in particular apart from the rite of circumcision. If one does not distinguish between the grounds and Author of our salvation and the mere conditions which the Author laid out to be thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’, one will end up in the trap of using one of them for a proof text to the complete obliteration of the other text that happens to not be in line with our presuppositions. This is a sure fire way to end up in error. Both passages are Divinely inspired and should be treated with utmost care. Our job should be to harmonize the two passages not to destroy the one to lift the other. I believe that I have attempted to do that in a logical and reasonable fashion that treats all passages with due respect and just honor.

My purpose was NOT to show that salvation is accomplished in a way consistent with our legal system. Salvations plan does not logically fit into any plan known to man that upholds the law and its penalty while at the same time showing mercy and compassion. I have heard many illustrations such as you have stated, but I see all them as aberrations of justice not real justice, and all with their obvious drawbacks. What good does it do, if in an attempt to show mercy as well as the execution of the laws penalty, to allow for a substitute? To release a criminal back into society just to kill an innocent man in his place? How is that justice or mercy? How does that uphold the penalty of the law upon the head of the lawbreaker and protect society from future acts of violence? I can see no such illustration within man’s justice system that could possibly accomplish similar accomplishments as did the atonement. The atonement stands alone in its own right with no real comparisons in our attempts at justice within the justice system. Just the same, as I pointed out, there is some comparisons we can make in all fairness in light of understanding grounds and conditions between our justice system in dealing with a pardon and the grounds and conditions of the atonement.

The notion that a literal payment was made for sins is simply not possible in light of any semblance of justice, and if it was, it would be a most unfair despicable act, and the most clear representation of being a respecter of persons imaginable. It will land one in the trap of deterministic fatalism without possibility of escape. If God literally chose to save some by choosing to atone for their sins before they were even born, without any regard to anything they had done or will do, God could be nothing other than the absolute cause of the damnation of all others, having no other possibility than to be punished eternally, due to the fact that God chose not to pay for their sins. I cannot believe that any fair minded individual would not shrink in horror at the blight the notion of a literal payment theory places upon the character of God. It is a heinous and insanely wicked blight upon the character of a Holy and Just God. We need to start taking our theological notions, we hold to so tenaciously, out to their logical end to see what it is that we really are promoting as the gospel truth.

I would like to see one Scripture that uphold the notion of the literal payment theory and its companion dogma that states that all sins, past present and future have been atoned for. It is simply not found in Scripture, nor is either idea consistent with any truth of justice as universally granted to all men via first truths of reason or their conscience period.

Even if in fact the literal payment theory was in fact truth, show me how, ‘absolutely’ one could be certain that their sins were of the ones atoned for, and still have faith, without which no man can please the Lord, as OSAS of necessity must contend to be of any literal good to us in this present world? If you hold something impossible to lose, you must have absolute knowledge of it in order to know you are positively in possession of it.

I cannot help but see your presentation as completly illogical and unreasonable IF I UNDERSTAND YOU, that we must exercise our wills in accordance to God’s gift in order to achieve salvation, and tell me that anything you chose to will to accept you can will not to accept, when holding to the notion of a literal payment theory. Are you telling me that your will can possibly have anything to do with something preordained from eternity APART from your will, or that it can reject a foreordained plan of God? Is your will stong enough to thwart the predestined will of God or do despite God either paying for your sins or not paying for them from eternity past?? Show me why such notions are not simply illogical and where such notions, as you have presented to us in a literal payment theory paying for all future sins, are represented as accomplishing such in Scripture.

 

same

Claudia,

You quoted me...

And then said...

Oh my!!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You have no idea the kick I got out of being called a "liberal"!! And I'm serious. I got a good long belly laugh out of that. And I mean that 100% good naturedly. I'm not the least bit upset. :wavey: I never thought I would ever hear the word "liberal" directed to me!

Trust me, Claudia...I am as conservative as they come. If you dont believe me, check out my posts on any thread having to do with the problems in the "mainline" protestant denominations. "Lutheran Missouri Synod", "United Methodist", "Presbyterian Church USA", etc.

Believe me, I get about as strong regarding those groups as I do on Catholic threads.

In~His~Grace~

Mike

 

same

I'll tell you what...

On the previous BB we could only do 8 smilies per post. I discovered with my last post that now its down to only 4 smilies!

What a bunch of "fuddy duddies"! :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

Mike

 

Gekko: do i sin? against my will yes.

HP: How do you do that? Sin is the transgression of the law. What moral law convicts you where your will is not actively opposed to a known commandment of God?

Morality can only be predicated where intents are evident. No intent, no moral choice is possible. No moral choice? No morality can be predicated. No morality predicable? Moral law cannot apply. Moral law not involved? No sin is possibly predicable.

 

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Romans 5:6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

--He gave himself for us; He redeemed us; God made him to be sin for us; the Lord laid on Christ the iniquity of us all.
That last phrase is the most powerful of them all.
God literally laid upon Christ the sins of all the people of all the ages. All sins: past, present, and future were put on Christ. He bore them all on the cross. That means that Christ bore all my sins on the cross: past, present and future. He paid the penalty for them all. Every one of these verses teach this fact. When I trust him as my Saviour; put faith in the sacrifice that he provided for me, then I accept his offer for forgiveness. My sins are paid for in full.


And like the justice system which has so many faults, you may criticize this one also. For I am a sinner--a terrible horrible sinner which has commintted many crimes against God in my life. I have done nothing worthy of going to heaven. Yet God in his mercy has already granted me eternal life. I know I will go to heaven when I die just as surely as if I had already been there. I have no reason to doubt the promises of God, and no reaosn to call Him a liar.


Often times a governor has no good reason to give a pardon to a criminal except out of his own mercy and grace.
God offers me forgiveness of sin only out of his mercy and grace. I, like a criminal before God have done nothing to deserve it. I don't deserve to go to heaven. What have I done to merit Heaven. Absolutely nothing, and in this lifetime could never ever do anything to merit eternal life. I don't deserve anything but the wrath of God.
As a criminal in prison can accept the merciful pardon of a governor,
So I a criminial against God, have already accepted God's forgiveness. I have admitted to him that I am a sinner; that if I got what I deserved I would spend all eternity in Hell; that He is the only way to Heaven; and cried out to Him for the forgiveness of my sin. And he granted me eternal life on the basis of his shed blood. He literally paid the penalty of my sin with his blood. That is what the atonement is all about. God the Father was satisfied with the payment of God the Son when he sacrificed His blood on the cross for our sins.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--He has satisfied the demands of God.
DHK

 

heavenly pilgrim said "HP: How do you do that? Sin is the transgression of the law. What moral law convicts you where your will is not actively opposed to a known commandment of God?"

how do i sin against my will?
well. let me back track a little bit and give a bit of a background.

i am saved. therefore i desire only to become righteous and holy as He is Holy. my desires are solely towards God. i hate sin. when we abide in Christ - we are called to have no more sin. that's impossible when we look at it... but is it? i mean - if the bible says we are to have no sin - then it is possible to have no sin. i hate lusting - yet occasionally i do - but i dont want to - but my flesh does - then i turn away from that. right there i have sinned against my will - when i became a true convert - my will became God's will. "for that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." --- let me pause here: for to will is present with me... will to do what? will to be Holy as He is Holy. but how to perform that which is good I find not -- what is good? becoming righteous as Christ is righteous - how to perform that Paul finds not - he explains in the next verses - "for the good that I would I do no: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... so then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." -- see paul had struggles in the flesh - he hated sin - and willed not to sin but to be righteous - he had no desires to sin - all his desires were upon God. so when he did sin - it was not him - it was not his will - it was not his mind - it was not his spirit that had sinned - but the flesh - the sin that dwelt within him.

so. how do you sin against your will? your will and God's will - your thinking and God's thinking - must be the same. you must hate sin. and have desires only for God.

i understand that sin is the transgression of the law - the thing is... true converts fall into sin - while false converts dive into sin. there's a difference. those who fall into sin - its like walking through a forest and you fall through a trap... you dont desire to fall - but you do - yet it can be avoided if you scout the surroundings. those who dive into sin - its like walking through a forest - seeing a dug out hole - becoming curious - and then going in there to see whats down there.

its a hard concept to grasp. i know. but its biblical... considering i took it all from the word of God.