xdisciplex
New Member
Were they still saved and God simply had to remove them to make an example and to show that this cannot be tolerated or did they go to hell?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Are Ananias and Sapphira in heaven?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
- Status
xdisciplex
New Member
No idea. 
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I have no idea where they are right now. J. Jump is right though. If they were saved by the grace of God, then they are in heaven. If not, then they are in Hell.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Ec 11:3b “ if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be.”
Not to make more out of this verse than that which is intended, it still seems logical to assume that the direction in which a man lives his life, to that end shall be his reward; salvation followed by obedience unto life everlasting with the Lord, disobedience and selfishness unto eternal damnation.
In the story found in Acts concerning the fate of Ananias and Sapphira, we are told that they had lied to the Holy Spirit concerning a property they had sold, keeping back a portion to themselves as if though they had offered it all to the Church for disbursement. Not only was his earthly life ended immediately, but that of his wife for the same offense also. Both obviously had their lives taken by God for this offense of lying.
Scripture clearly states that there will be no liars in heaven. Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Why would a minister of the gospel stand before a congregation and try to preach these two individuals into the kingdom? What could be found as evidence to the notion that such were saved in the end? What could possibly be the motivation and a minister of the gospel preaching so?
Scriptures do not tell us of their eternal fate in absolute terms. The possibility exists one on either side of this issue could in fact be wrong, not privy to the final intents of the hearts of these slain individuals, nor of God’s final judgment. Just the same, does one position or the other seem to be the far safer position to take in light of the facts we do know?
With the fact as they are, they lied to the Holy Spirit and God killed them instantly. I can see no indication whatsoever in Scripture that this couple, with the facts as they are presented, and the fact that no liars will be found in heaven, that they will be found to have gained entrance into the kingdom. If we can believe and teach that we can lie to the Holy Spirit, or break the commandments and still enter into heaven apart from fulfilling the conditions God has set forth for forgiveness, i.e., repentance, faith, and obedience unto the end, we have set the stage for a purely antinomian gospel, a gospel foreign to the Word of God.
I believe that when we make statements to the effect that men and women like ‘Ananias and Sapphira’ will be in heaven, that it numbs the conscience into believing a lie, a lie that presumes upon the grace of God, imagining that it will cover for unrepentented and continued act of disobedience apart from any and all conditions. “Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
The prophet Ezekiel gives to us a solemn warning that would seem to speak clearly to such cases as these two in Acts most likely experienced. Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
It would seem to be our duty as Christians and ministers of the gospel to warn the unruly and sinner of the possible end of his ways. To preach a presumptuous gospel, presuming God will cover for sins not repented of, is careless at best, dangerous at worse. David prayed, “Ps 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: THEN shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.”
Not to make more out of this verse than that which is intended, it still seems logical to assume that the direction in which a man lives his life, to that end shall be his reward; salvation followed by obedience unto life everlasting with the Lord, disobedience and selfishness unto eternal damnation.
In the story found in Acts concerning the fate of Ananias and Sapphira, we are told that they had lied to the Holy Spirit concerning a property they had sold, keeping back a portion to themselves as if though they had offered it all to the Church for disbursement. Not only was his earthly life ended immediately, but that of his wife for the same offense also. Both obviously had their lives taken by God for this offense of lying.
Scripture clearly states that there will be no liars in heaven. Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Why would a minister of the gospel stand before a congregation and try to preach these two individuals into the kingdom? What could be found as evidence to the notion that such were saved in the end? What could possibly be the motivation and a minister of the gospel preaching so?
Scriptures do not tell us of their eternal fate in absolute terms. The possibility exists one on either side of this issue could in fact be wrong, not privy to the final intents of the hearts of these slain individuals, nor of God’s final judgment. Just the same, does one position or the other seem to be the far safer position to take in light of the facts we do know?
With the fact as they are, they lied to the Holy Spirit and God killed them instantly. I can see no indication whatsoever in Scripture that this couple, with the facts as they are presented, and the fact that no liars will be found in heaven, that they will be found to have gained entrance into the kingdom. If we can believe and teach that we can lie to the Holy Spirit, or break the commandments and still enter into heaven apart from fulfilling the conditions God has set forth for forgiveness, i.e., repentance, faith, and obedience unto the end, we have set the stage for a purely antinomian gospel, a gospel foreign to the Word of God.
I believe that when we make statements to the effect that men and women like ‘Ananias and Sapphira’ will be in heaven, that it numbs the conscience into believing a lie, a lie that presumes upon the grace of God, imagining that it will cover for unrepentented and continued act of disobedience apart from any and all conditions. “Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
The prophet Ezekiel gives to us a solemn warning that would seem to speak clearly to such cases as these two in Acts most likely experienced. Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
It would seem to be our duty as Christians and ministers of the gospel to warn the unruly and sinner of the possible end of his ways. To preach a presumptuous gospel, presuming God will cover for sins not repented of, is careless at best, dangerous at worse. David prayed, “Ps 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: THEN shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.”
same
Whether they are in heaven now or not is totally dependant on whether they were ever born again through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
If so, they were permanently "sealed" into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit at that moment and they are in heaven now. Their behavior, be it good or bad, is completly irelavent regarding their eternal destination. They are seen as 100% sinless by God due to the imputation of Christs rightiousness to their "account". Their behavior will however effect rewards or loss of rewards.
If they never were born again they will judged according to their works, all of them, not just the lie in question, found guilty, and lost for eternity.
God bless,
Mike
Whether they are in heaven now or not is totally dependant on whether they were ever born again through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
If so, they were permanently "sealed" into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit at that moment and they are in heaven now. Their behavior, be it good or bad, is completly irelavent regarding their eternal destination. They are seen as 100% sinless by God due to the imputation of Christs rightiousness to their "account". Their behavior will however effect rewards or loss of rewards.
If they never were born again they will judged according to their works, all of them, not just the lie in question, found guilty, and lost for eternity.
God bless,
Mike
same
Heavenly Pilgrim,
If Annanias and Sapphira were born of the Spirit they are not "liars". They are "saints"
The lie that was told, and every other sin they ever committed, either before or after they were born again, where completly paid for by Christ, and cast as far as the east is from the west. The only thing God sees when they stand before Him is Christs perfection and rightiousness, which has been imputed to them.
Praise God! \o/
If they were born again than they are not liars, because Christ never lied.
Grace and peace,
Mike
Heavenly Pilgrim,
If Annanias and Sapphira were born of the Spirit they are not "liars". They are "saints"
The lie that was told, and every other sin they ever committed, either before or after they were born again, where completly paid for by Christ, and cast as far as the east is from the west. The only thing God sees when they stand before Him is Christs perfection and rightiousness, which has been imputed to them.
Praise God! \o/
If they were born again than they are not liars, because Christ never lied.
Grace and peace,
Mike
Each "member" of the church at Jerusalem was "saved" and baptized, or else they were not members. They heard the Word of God, were baptized, and the same day added unto the church. And the Lord added unto the church daily such as should be saved.
With that backround in mind, consider the difference between a saved person and an unsaved person.
An unsaved person cannot tempt the Holy Spirit, or lie to the Holy Spirt, for his Spirit is dead to the Holy Spirit. He has not yet been made alive to the things of God.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Unsaved the Ephesians were dead, spiritually. Once saved they were alive, spiritually. Only the saved are alive. Only the saved have the ability to lie or tempt the Holy Spirit. A dead person cannot do that. Now consider the Scripture:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
--The very fact that they could lie to the Spirit and tempt the Spirit points to the fact that they were believers.
The fact that it was the church (a body of believers) that had fear as a result of this episode (and not unbelievers in general) points to the fact that these were beleivers. It was a lesson to the believers in the church (particularly the local church in Jerusalem) that hypocrisy will not be tolerated. That was their sin--the sin of hypocrisy. They were pretending to do something and be something that they were not. And God judged them for it. But I believe they were believers, and a believer does not lose his slavation because he sins.
DHK
With that backround in mind, consider the difference between a saved person and an unsaved person.
An unsaved person cannot tempt the Holy Spirit, or lie to the Holy Spirt, for his Spirit is dead to the Holy Spirit. He has not yet been made alive to the things of God.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Unsaved the Ephesians were dead, spiritually. Once saved they were alive, spiritually. Only the saved are alive. Only the saved have the ability to lie or tempt the Holy Spirit. A dead person cannot do that. Now consider the Scripture:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
--The very fact that they could lie to the Spirit and tempt the Spirit points to the fact that they were believers.
The fact that it was the church (a body of believers) that had fear as a result of this episode (and not unbelievers in general) points to the fact that these were beleivers. It was a lesson to the believers in the church (particularly the local church in Jerusalem) that hypocrisy will not be tolerated. That was their sin--the sin of hypocrisy. They were pretending to do something and be something that they were not. And God judged them for it. But I believe they were believers, and a believer does not lose his slavation because he sins.
DHK
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
For those that are Arminians here I have only one anecdotal tale that *may* shed some light...
There was a minister when I was on Guam who loved Jesus with his whole heart and would give you the shirt off his back... Marvelous guy...
He captured quite a following and was well liked even by the other ministers on the Island.
Unfortunately he had a few pet doctrines that were really causing problems and divisions in the church...
The other ministers pleaded with him to stop teaching these doctrines...
He refused...
One day this man had a heart attack (he was an early Word-Faith Practitioner). He was rushed by ambulance to the ER and a young Charismatic Catholic Police Officer escorted the Ambulance to the ER...
The ER was quite a circus as many of this mans followers gathered around to pray for him and plead that Jesus restore him to them...
In the meantime this rather young in the Lord Police Officer was standing in the corner and had a vision...
Jesus and this man were standing looking over the scene in the ER...
The man says, 'Lord, they want me to come back'.
To which Our Lord puts his arm around the mans shoulder, leads him away saying, 'Let's go talk about it'.
The man was not restored...
Now, I know that many here don't believe in such things. But, I personally knew the Police Officer and the Minister who died...
Many 'unusual' happenings were going on at the time as there was a revival in progress.
My point is this... Our Lord may take someone home to protect the Body of Christ and it may not neccesarily impact their eternal destination.
While it is hard for an Arminian to believe in the possibility that Ananias and Saphira could potentially be with Chirst.
What sin did they actualy commit? I, personally, do not believe lying to a minister or the Holy Spirit is the same as Blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. As I do not know of any scriptures which would support hat contention.
I firmly believe their sin was against the Body of Christ.
It, IMHO, had the potential to totally destroy the unity of the church of that day which would have made it ineffective.
There was a minister when I was on Guam who loved Jesus with his whole heart and would give you the shirt off his back... Marvelous guy...
He captured quite a following and was well liked even by the other ministers on the Island.
Unfortunately he had a few pet doctrines that were really causing problems and divisions in the church...
The other ministers pleaded with him to stop teaching these doctrines...
He refused...
One day this man had a heart attack (he was an early Word-Faith Practitioner). He was rushed by ambulance to the ER and a young Charismatic Catholic Police Officer escorted the Ambulance to the ER...
The ER was quite a circus as many of this mans followers gathered around to pray for him and plead that Jesus restore him to them...
In the meantime this rather young in the Lord Police Officer was standing in the corner and had a vision...
Jesus and this man were standing looking over the scene in the ER...
The man says, 'Lord, they want me to come back'.
To which Our Lord puts his arm around the mans shoulder, leads him away saying, 'Let's go talk about it'.
The man was not restored...
Now, I know that many here don't believe in such things. But, I personally knew the Police Officer and the Minister who died...
Many 'unusual' happenings were going on at the time as there was a revival in progress.
My point is this... Our Lord may take someone home to protect the Body of Christ and it may not neccesarily impact their eternal destination.
While it is hard for an Arminian to believe in the possibility that Ananias and Saphira could potentially be with Chirst.
What sin did they actualy commit? I, personally, do not believe lying to a minister or the Holy Spirit is the same as Blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. As I do not know of any scriptures which would support hat contention.
I firmly believe their sin was against the Body of Christ.
It, IMHO, had the potential to totally destroy the unity of the church of that day which would have made it ineffective.
xdisciplex
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
This means if you die sinning you go to hell...
What happens to you if you die while you're sinning? Can you make sure that this will never happen?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Xdisciplex: This means if you die sinning you go to hell...
What happens to you if you die while you're sinning?
HP: What does Scripture say? Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Xdisciplex: Can you make sure that this will never happen?
HP: Absolutely. Remain obedient. 1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
What happens to you if you die while you're sinning?
HP: What does Scripture say? Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Xdisciplex: Can you make sure that this will never happen?
HP: Absolutely. Remain obedient. 1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
SMM: While it is hard for an Arminian to believe in the possibility that Ananias and Saphira could potentially be with Chirst.
HP: Who knows? Try asking one. I for one would like to hear their response as well.
HP: Who knows? Try asking one. I for one would like to hear their response as well.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
D28guy:If Annanias and Sapphira were born of the Spirit they are not "liars". They are "saints"
HP: DHK said they were believers and God called them liars. I cannot recall where Scripture says that no liars will enter heaven unless you are a lying saint.
HP: DHK said they were believers and God called them liars. I cannot recall where Scripture says that no liars will enter heaven unless you are a lying saint.
xdisciplex
New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Oh please!
You are using an old testament verse whose meaning isn't clear at all to prove that a christian who dies sinning goes to hell? Come on! Are you telling me you never sin? lol!
Everybody sins. Now what do you do if you have a sinful thought and just in this moment you get a stroke and cannot repent anymore? This is hilarious! :thumbsup:
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
disciple,
I don't believe one can lose their slavation...but you need to know that he actually quoted a letter from the Apostle Paul to the Church in Corinth which is in the New Testament.
Joseph Botwinick
I don't believe one can lose their slavation...but you need to know that he actually quoted a letter from the Apostle Paul to the Church in Corinth which is in the New Testament.
Joseph Botwinick
Brother Bob
New Member
Liars
Revelation, chapter 21
Chapter
Book
"8": But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John, chapter 8
Chapter
Book
"21": Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Seems the above Scriptures should answer the question.
Revelation, chapter 21
Chapter
Book
"8": But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John, chapter 8
Chapter
Book
"21": Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Seems the above Scriptures should answer the question.
xdisciplex
New Member
You mean 1Co 10:13?
I was referring to Eze 18:24.
Clarke Commentary:
When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness - Here is the second case. Can a man who was once holy and pure fall away so as to perish everlastingly? Yes. For God says, “If he turn away from his righteousness;” not his self-righteousness, the gloss of theologians: for God never speaks of turning away from that, for, in his eyes, that is a nonentity. There is no righteousness or holiness but what himself infuses into the soul of man, and as to self-righteousness, i.e., a man’s supposing himself to be righteous when he has not the life of God in his soul, it is the delusion of a dark and hardened heart; therefore it is the real righteous principle and righteous practice that God speaks of here. And he tells us, that al man may so “turn away from this,” and so “commit iniquity,” and “act as the wicked man,” that his righteousness shall be no more mentioned to his account, than the sins of the penitent backslider should be mentioned to his condemnation; and “in the sin that he” this once righteous man, “hath sinned, and in the trespass that he hath trespassed, in them shall he die.” O, how awful a termination of a life once distinguished for righteousness and true holiness! So then, God himself informs us that a righteous man may not only fall foully, but fall finally. ...............
I was referring to Eze 18:24.
Clarke Commentary:
When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness - Here is the second case. Can a man who was once holy and pure fall away so as to perish everlastingly? Yes. For God says, “If he turn away from his righteousness;” not his self-righteousness, the gloss of theologians: for God never speaks of turning away from that, for, in his eyes, that is a nonentity. There is no righteousness or holiness but what himself infuses into the soul of man, and as to self-righteousness, i.e., a man’s supposing himself to be righteous when he has not the life of God in his soul, it is the delusion of a dark and hardened heart; therefore it is the real righteous principle and righteous practice that God speaks of here. And he tells us, that al man may so “turn away from this,” and so “commit iniquity,” and “act as the wicked man,” that his righteousness shall be no more mentioned to his account, than the sins of the penitent backslider should be mentioned to his condemnation; and “in the sin that he” this once righteous man, “hath sinned, and in the trespass that he hath trespassed, in them shall he die.” O, how awful a termination of a life once distinguished for righteousness and true holiness! So then, God himself informs us that a righteous man may not only fall foully, but fall finally. ...............
xdisciplex
New Member
Brother Bob said:
Why are these sins even listed? I don't understand this. This sounds like you are saved if you don't lie, murder and so on...
Does this mean a christian who lies goes to hell? But do we not all lie sometimes?
So why are these sins listed? Or what if a christian kills somebody? Is he forever lost or what? If not, why does the text say that murderers go to hell?
I didn't say that; nor does the Bible say that. You have misrepresented my words. Try quoting me instead.
What is said in the Scripture is
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Peter asked Ananias "Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spiirt?"
That doesn't say that God called them liars. You are misrepresenting what the Bible says. Peter points out Ananias's lie. God doesn't call him a liar. There is a difference.
However God does calll you a liar, as well as everyone of us.
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Obviously Rev.21:8 has another or a deeper meaning rather than the flippant meaning that so many throw out at just anyone and say: "all liars will go the lake of fire." What does the verse mean. If it means what you imply it means then absolutely no one will be in heaven. Heaven will be empty. For we all are liars.
D28GUY made a good point. He was a saint that had lied. I thank God that all my sins: past present and future (including lies) are under the blood of Christ. Therefore, there is no condemantion to them (me) which are in Christ Jesus. I don't have to worry about that.
DHK
- Status