ARE ARMINIAN GOING TO HEAVEN?

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Ah, you've missed the responsibility of man. You HAVE a choice, but sadly, without the regenerating work of the Spirit giving you a new nature, your old nature always chooses WRONG.

It is God's immense mercy that ANYONE is chosen. Without that, we all of our own free choice, go straight to hell.

How can we have any choice if Grace is irresistable? Obviously those who aren't the elect have no choice.

Therefore, under Calvinism a person is either saved or condemned without a choice. This doesn't square with the whole counsel of God's word which tells us we will be held accountable for our actions or our choices.


In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[superdave]

We have to view the whole counsel of God. Not just individual sections of scripture or attributes of God.

God has decreed everything that occurs or he would not be sovereign, in a way that he is not responsible for the "bad" outcomes, or he would not be Holy. It is not a contradiction for an infinite being. There are many such primary paradoxes when you view God's attributes, how does he remain both loving and just, how does he maintain Man's free will, and his own sovereignty? These are questions we cannot fully answer.

Simplistically, God created man, gave him a free will, and decreed the fall (in a way that he is not responsible for it) in order for him to be given an opportunity to show mercy, but in order to maintain his justice and holiness, equal payment had to be exacted (not identical payment). He sent his Son (both fully human, and fully God, another interesting paradox) and Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, and offered himself as the spotless lamb to fulfill the debt we as sin cursed humans could not pay. He also decreed those to be elect of whom he had intimate knowledge of before the creation, in such a way that he is not responsible for their 'choice' to reject Christ. They will get what all mankind deserves, and is destined for without Christ. There are elements of God's sovereign will and man's ability to choose in the body of scripture dedicated to Salvation, you cannot avoid either one.

It really comes down to perspective. From a human perspective, our only chance is to accept the free Gift of Eternal life. The only way IMHO that we can do this scripturally is through the impartation of spiritual life to us by the spirit as a part of our salvation. But to us, it is a choice we must make. From God's perspective, he is in control, and "knows them that are his" and he must, in order to remain God!

Ok, so simplistically was not the word for that, but it is a much different scenario talking about salvation from a evangelistic perspective, to a theological one.

I can't wrap my finite brain around that concept either, but the facts are there, as Dr. Bob said above, both the sovereignty of God in Salvation, and the Responsibility of man to live with the consences of his choices is taught in scripture.

 

[Istherenotacause]

And all this time I thought God chose to save sinners, that Jesus came seeking and to save that which was lost, that He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence, and since "there are none righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" then all are sinners who need to acknowledge God so they can be saved. To think, I got all that from the Bible! Humph!

 

[superdave]

That is all true, but it is not All

The whole premise is that Man is unrighteous, and that no one seeketh after God. Jesus death is able to save the whole world, clearly, but Not all will be drawn to God by the spirit. In the big picture, God uses the problem of sin as a tool to demonstrate his mercy and grace, attributes that we could not recognize unless we needed them.

All have sinned Rom. 3:23, hence all deserve death 6:23, Christ died for the ungodly 5:8, anyone who identifies their life with Jesus and puts their trust in him will be saved from eternal death Jn 3:16.

Will all do this, clearly not, how can God "know" who will choose Christ if he did not decree it? How could he not do so, and remain sovereign? Also how could be be held responsible for man's choice to reject Christ and remain Holy? Even in a logical argument a more Calvinist view of salvation is clearly more supportable, besides the fact that Election, Irresistable Grace, Perseverance of the Saints, The Depravity of Man, and The fact that not all humans will be saved from Sin are clearly taught in scripture. Salvation is not simple from a theological perspective, most of the key Biblical truths we espouse are not, but from a practical viewpoint, from the perspective of Man's responsibility, Salvation is simple. "Repent and thou shalt be saved"

 

[Bible Student]

What I think is a shame, (on me too), is that we spend so much time discussing the "fine points" of this topic and I think most Baptist believe that Salvation is by the Grace and Power of God, we miss the point of the scripture, I am to go and plant, water, and God will give the increase.

Maybe we all should quit the discussion and start following the Bible and turn off these computers and tell someone about the God of the Bible and let God do His Work.

It is evident that whoever gets to Heaven must hear the Word and message of God before they can believe in any way.

Matt 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

Richard

 

[NarrowWay]

Most "Armenians" today believe the following:

1) The gospel is presented to them by a minister, evangelest, Sunday School teacher, Deacon, or lay Christian.

2) The Holy Spirit works on their heart to convict them of their sins.

3) They accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord.

4) They begin to understand what it means to live a Christian life and to follow the Lord.

5) They praise God and worship Him as the author of their salvation both in this life and for ever more.

Steps 2 and 3 are where the major differences lie. Dr. Bob if you find this alternate view of becoming a Christian disgusting so be it. That makes me wonder what your true motives are. My view is that the world is largely damned to Hell and we're arguing theological issues. You're either on the Lord's side or you're on the side of the Devil.

 

[tyndale1946]

Might I interject a thought... I always thought that Jesus Christ was the reason we got to heaven not our theological stand... Whatever it is!... Am I missing something here or are you?... Brother Glen

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by NarrowWay:
Dr. Bob if you find this alternate view of becoming a Christian disgusting so be it. That makes me wonder what your true motives are.

To clarify my motive - everything I do, say, believe, think, et al is to give glory to God. Nothing more.

(BTW, I believe that Arminian false teaching gives glory and sovereignty to man (who MAKES the choice, who DECIDES, who CHOOSES, who CONTINUES or loses it. 5-point biblicism gives the glory and sovereignty to God, to Whom it belongs.)

 

[NarrowWay]

Dr. Bob,

Giving all the glory to God does not mean that a Christian should villify the beliefs of other Christians who have a different theology than you do. The Bible says that we fight against "powers and principalities (of Satan and of the world)" not against other Christians. Theological discussion is useful but the bottom line is whether you follow the risen Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior. All other distinctives pale by comparison.

 

[wizofoz]

Originally posted by NarrowWay:
Dr. Bob,

Giving all the glory to God does not mean that a Christian should villify the beliefs of other Christians who have a different theology than you do. The Bible says that we fight against "powers and principalities (of Satan and of the world)" not against other Christians. Theological discussion is useful but the bottom line is whether you follow the risen Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior. All other distinctives pale by comparison.

Hmmm...do I hear the voice of reason here?

 

[Dr. Bob]

There are people who have bad theological positions on any number of areas. Different from mine and just really bad!

But when we are talking about Grace and salvation it is one where "bad" theology changes to "evil" or "damning".

Roman Catholic teaching on the pope is "bad", but their works/pelagian salvation is not just bad, but "evil".

Trust me, I choose my words. ANY salvation that takes sovereign grace from God and usurps it for man (semi-pelagian, same result) gets blanket condemnation.

But that's why I'm a Baptist and not a Wesleyan!

 

[William C]

Dr. Bob,

I have 3 questions for you.

First,

Do you believe people are born able to believe the gospel message or do you believe that God must enable them to believe it?

Second,

Does he only enable the elect, or does he enable all men?

Third,

What is your scriptural support for your views.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
I have never heard anyone even hint at the notion that Rom 10:17 meant that a person had to actually HEAR the gospel. That would automatically leave out the deaf (a group BTW that I seem to be rapidly becoming a member of ).

As far as Eternal Security is concerned, there is no doctrine that I am more convinced of than this. Can a person be saved and not hold to it? Yes, but, my confidence in their salvation will be perportional to their distance away from it.

I never can remeber how many points I am toward being a calvinst or arminian. It has never been of the slighest importance in my 30+ years of being a Christian and only on a very rare occasion has it even been the slighest bit interesting. I do know that I am not a full one of either and I have to be reminded what those points are every time they are discussed. (Guess which forum I have hardly ever been to. )

Amen brother.....

Put these rings in order and you have your picture of sovereign grace…

1. Foreknow – First, God knows the ending from the beginning, he foreknew who would choose Christ, therefore he did……..
2. Predestinate- him to become the image of his son, from the foundations of the world he…….
3. Called – them as the…..
4. Chosen- and the very elect of God. Not only will they endure, but also they are already….
5. Glorified – as if they were in heaven right at this very moment…. Actually, we sit with him now in heavenly places in Christ Jesus… With our weakness (of the flesh) we sometimes don’t see this clearly… Therefore, we look through the eye of faith…. I am persuaded that he who has began a good work in me is able to finish it… In fact, it is finished, all of His works are finished, therefore He sits on the right hand side of God….

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[ June 17, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Graceforever ]

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
There are people who have bad theological positions on any number of areas. Different from mine and just really bad!

But when we are talking about Grace and salvation it is one where "bad" theology changes to "evil" or "damning".

Roman Catholic teaching on the pope is "bad", but their works/pelagian salvation is not just bad, but "evil".

Trust me, I choose my words. ANY salvation that takes sovereign grace from God and usurps it for man (semi-pelagian, same result) gets blanket condemnation.

But that's why I'm a Baptist and not a Wesleyan!

I finally made it down to your post Dr. Bob, and I have to say, Amen, and Amen...... I find myself often in agreement wtih you and I'm never more sure as when it is in agreement with the gospel of sovereign grace....

Here is an article that is close to my heart, C. H. Spurgeon said,

"Last Sabbath morning I tried to show that the substance and essence of the
true gospel is the doctrine of God's grace—that, in fact, if you take away the
grace of God from the gospel you have extracted from it its very life-blood,
and there is nothing left worth preaching, worth believing, or worth contending for.
Grace is the soul of the gospel: without it the gospel is dead. Grace is the music
of the gospel: without it the gospel is silent as to all comfort. I endeavored also
to set forth the doctrine of grace in brief terms, teaching that God deals with
sinful men upon the footing of pure mercy: finding them guilty and condemned,
he gives free pardons, altogether irrespective of past character, or of any good
works which may be foreseen. Moved only by pity he devises a plan for their
rescue from sin and its consequences—a plan in which grace is the leading feature.
Out of free favour he has provided, in the death of his dear Son, an
atonement by means of which his mercy can be justly bestowed. He accepts all
those who place their trust in this atonement, selecting faith as the way of
salvation, that it may be all of grace. In this he acts, from a motive found
within himself, and not because of any reason found in the
sinner's conduct, past, present, or future. I tried to show that this grace of
God flows towards the sinner from of old, and begins its operations upon
him when there is nothing good in him: it works in him that which is
good and acceptable, and continues so to work in him till the deed of grace
is complete, and the believer is received up into the glory for which he is
made meet. Grace commences to save, and it perseveres till all is done. From first
to last, from the "A" to the "Z" of the heavenly alphabet, everything in
salvation is of grace, and grace alone; all is of free favour, nothing of merit.
"By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the
gift of God," "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him
that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

http://www.geocities.com/gmw_777/DR_GRACE.html

[ June 17, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Graceforever ]

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
There are people who have bad theological positions on any number of areas. Different from mine and just really bad!

But when we are talking about Grace and salvation it is one where "bad" theology changes to "evil" or "damning".

Roman Catholic teaching on the pope is "bad", but their works/pelagian salvation is not just bad, but "evil".

Trust me, I choose my words. ANY salvation that takes sovereign grace from God and usurps it for man (semi-pelagian, same result) gets blanket condemnation.

But that's why I'm a Baptist and not a Wesleyan!

I think all true believers (example, the Wesley boys, whose hymns often denied their theology, e.g., "Amazing Love") are calvinists, but many are in denial.

Spurgeon was once asked to preach at a primitive Methodist assembly. He had a soft spot in his heart for these folks, since God (who loves to be ironic) saved Spurgeon, Calvinist #1, in a Primitive Methodist chapel.

He said that he came to a place in his text where election was prominent, and he said, "I've been told there are no calvinists here." The crowd drew in a breath... Spurgeon said, "How many here give all the credit for your salvation to Christ and Him alone?" There were numerous shouts of "amen!" and "glory!" Spurgeon continued, "And who here would claim any iota of credit for his own salvation?" The crowd was deathly silent. Spurgeon, smiled, and said, "Ah, I was misinformed, you are all Calvinists." And he went on to the next point.

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by Timothy L.:

2. Who really knows if you are truly one of the "elect"? You will recognize them by their fruits you may say, but maybe someone just works and works for the Lord and still isn't one of the elect. I just came for an extremely evangelistic church. This church taught that cursed Calvinistic doctrine of OSAS, yet members were constantly being saved and baptized again. Many of these were dedicated and faithful in service and attendance to the church. Where is the assurance that you are one of the elect?

So many Christians don't even realize what fruits are.... They have works and fruits confused.....


Here are the fruits of the spirit, “Romans 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Now by those fruits you can judge someone…..

Our only work is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ….

These are the works of the flesh….. Romans 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Dr. Bob,
1 - Do you believe people are born able to believe the gospel message or do you believe that God must enable them to believe it?

2 - Does he only enable the elect, or does he enable all men?

3 - What is your scriptural support for your views.

No problem: No one can come to the Father unless the Spirit draw him. And all that come will not be cast out. All that the Father has given Me, said Jesus, will come and believe.

John 6 should be a good place to start.

So no one can come/believe without the special intervention of God. And all who have that special intervention will come. God is sovereign and in charge.

 

[William C]

Dr. Bob,

I hear ya. I too once believed what you are saying, but consider this:

Could it be that when Jesus is speaking in John 6 he is specifically speaking about coming to him in the flesh. In other words, couldn't Jesus be saying, "All that the father gives to me while I'm here on earth, will come to me and I will lose none of all that the father gives me." It seems that Jesus was given a certain number of people to disciple and train while he was on earth. We can clearly see in Jn 17 that the phrase "those who the Father gave me" was a direct reference to the apostles, not a reference to every believer who "comes to believe in Jesus." Make sense?

Also, I think it is important to understand who Jesus' audience was in John 6. His audience was Israel. Calvinists assume that the reason his audience was not able to believe was because they were born Totally depraved, right?

Wrong. According to John 12:37-41 they couldn't believe because God had temporarily hardened them, not because they were born that way.

Just something to think about. I'm interested to know how you would answer these claims. Thanks again for your time.

 

[NarrowWay]

Claiming that under the Calvinist philosophy, those who are not elected to Heaven are not elected to Hell is a ridiculous statement. If God says that you won't live after an automobile accident then you will what??????? There are only two alternatives in both examples. Either you live or die. Either yow are predestined to go to Heaven or you GO TO HELL. Is there another alternative? This argument is simply a word game with absolutely no substance. Don't think so" Your life will not extend past midnight tonight. Feel comfy?

 

[superdave]

It is not a ridiculous word game.

All men are on their way to Hell. It is because of our nature, we are incapable of choosing any other path.

The fact that God chooses to save anyone is a work of his divine grace.

By electing some to Salvation, he is demonstrating his great grace, he is not demonstrating his wrath toward the lost, that has already been set in place, they are two totally different things.

God decreed all things, or else he would cease to be God, in such a way that he is not responsible for those things that are "bad" or else he would not be holy.

The argument that God does not elect people to hell is not word games, it is merely a result of a proper focus and balance of God's attributes, and the scriptural principles regarding salvation. If you want to view God as vindictive and arbitrary, that's fine, but it doesn't align with the revealed truth regarding his nature.