ARE ARMINIAN GOING TO HEAVEN?

[Karen]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
......
Trust me, I choose my words. ANY salvation that takes sovereign grace from God and usurps it for man (semi-pelagian, same result) gets blanket condemnation.

But that's why I'm a Baptist and not a Wesleyan!

Dear Dr.Bob,
I guess I just don't see that. There is a Wesleyan university near me, and I have paid private school tuition for over ten years at the local Wesleyan school for my kids.
Very close relatives and friends are Wesleyans.
We have talked specifically many times.
They are Christians, saying that the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross is what has saved them, not their works.
I have paid very close attention to what has been taught to my kids in the school. I have often gone to chapel services. The largest group of attenders at this Wesleyan school is actually Baptist.
Yes, I have met a couple of fearful Wesleyans.
And some traditional points of theology are wrong. (I am a Baptist.)
But I have also met some fearful Calvinists, who
worry that in spite of everything, they are not among the elect.
The Wesleyans have a powerful witness in my town, and I am grateful for it.

Karen

 

[NarrowWay]

Originally posted by superdave:
It is not a ridiculous word game.

All men are on their way to Hell. It is because of our nature, we are incapable of choosing any other path.

The fact that God chooses to save anyone is a work of his divine grace.

By electing some to Salvation, he is demonstrating his great grace, he is not demonstrating his wrath toward the lost, that has already been set in place, they are two totally different things.

God decreed all things, or else he would cease to be God, in such a way that he is not responsible for those things that are "bad" or else he would not be holy.

The argument that God does not elect people to hell is not word games, it is merely a result of a proper focus and balance of God's attributes, and the scriptural principles regarding salvation. If you want to view God as vindictive and arbitrary, that's fine, but it doesn't align with the revealed truth regarding his nature.

I agree that all are going to Hell unless they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. You say it's man's nature. Of course, it came as a result of Adam and Eve's decision to turn from God. But, if you believe all things are pre-destined then God fore-ordained that this would happen. Therefore, God put man in this predicament. If He doesn't chose to save those whom He has not elected to Life, then He choses them to Death because there's no other alternative.

 

[superdave]

God decreed all things, or else he would cease to be God, in such a way that he is not responsible for those things that are "bad" or else he would not be holy.

You missed part of my quote.
God decreed the fall, I agree, he had to

He is also not responsible for the decisions of man, even when he decrees them. This has to do with the difference between a finite created being and the infinite creator God. It is a matter of perspective. That is why I don't think teaching Calvin's points is an effective evangelistic tool, you have to uphold the accountability of man for his own decision on what to do with God. At the same time recognizing that no man will seek after God, the "seeker" does so because the spirit draws him. My calvinist leanings are purely theological, there are other practical considerations and commands of scripture that dictate my obedience that would seem to fly in the face of the Sovereignty of God. Why do we pray? Why do we witness? Why do we make any effort to make God's name famous? Whats the point if he will take care of these things with or without us? Its obedience! (Of course even obedience through progressive sanctification is a work of God, but lets not go there right now )

God had to decree the fall, or else he would not be Sovereign, in a way that does not hold him responsible for the outcome (all men deserving hell) or else he would not be holy.

We see the responsibility of Adam for his sin and the sin of his progeny in scripture. "For as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so death passed upon all men" Of course the second part of the verse is the glorious part, Jesus Christ has made equal payment for our sin. His death allows a just God to justify the sinner and accept him into the holy presence of God. We cannot do anything as finite created beings to deserve this, it had to be a human being who was also a member of the creatory realm! The God-man. The whole scenario is a collosal oxymoron. There is so much conflict in the theology of Salvation, we really have to view it was a work that only God could do.

It is somewhat like the ridiculous question "could God create a rock he cannot lift?" The answer is no, it would not conform to his nature. There are things God cannot do, but they are a function of his nature. He cannot sin, because he is holy, perfect, etc. Yet his inability to do somthing against his very nature does not make him less than God! That is what it always comes down to. God cannot not decree the fall, and he cannot be responsible for Adam's sin by his very nature. They are not mutually exclusive, as tough as that is to explain, I probably have not done it adequately

(You can all wake up now, boring philosophical drivel is finished) Let's go soul winning! (Now theres a man-glorifying term if I ever heard one!)

 

[Heavenly Thunderings]

Why not visit my new site? [Link erased as it had nothing to do with this topic - this is NOT a place for advertising. If it appears again . . ]

[ June 24, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

[NarrowWay]

Originally posted by superdave:

God had to decree the fall, or else he would not be Sovereign, in a way that does not hold him responsible for the outcome (all men deserving hell) or else he would not be holy.

We see the responsibility of Adam for his sin and the sin of his progeny in scripture.

These are the kinds of statements that I don't accept. God doesn't "have to do" anything. We know a very small part of His nature from His revelations to us but who's to say that in reality He's not quite different? Calvinists place a great deal of importance on the sovereignty of God and I fully support the belief that He is in charge and deserves all our praise and honor but what statement can be more against this idea than saying that God "has to do" anything?

As far as Adam and Eve are concerned, I believe they had unrestricted free will. God did not cause the fall of man in fact it greatly grieved Him.

 

[Skandelon]

What difference does this make practically speaking?

Just curious.

 

[NarrowWay]

In a practical sense, I'm arguing that God neither wanted man to fall nor did He cause it to happen (predestine it). God created man to praise and worship Him, not to curse and turn their back on Him. Man was created a little lower than the angels in God's own image.

Man used his god-given right to chose to reject God. God didn't want it to turn out that way but when it did he reacted swiftly in just retribution. Man has never been as reconciled to God as Adam and Eve were when they walked with Him in the cool of the day. We'll finally make it all the way back on Judgement Day.

 

[superdave]

You are proving the same point I am. God has to act in accordance with his nature, it is the way all beings must act. This is not a limit or evidence of a higher being than God, it merely is fact. God must always act in a way consistent with his very nature, he does not change, and is not the divine watchmaker. He did not set the world in motion, and than take his hands off to see what would happen. There is no "look ma no hands" scenario here. God by his sovereign nature decrees the events that occur. Man's free will resides within the will of God, or he would cease to be God. Being changeless, that is impossible for him. Are you saying that God could choose to cease to be God? His actions are always consistent with his nature, which does leave some actions and attitudes outside of God's ability to perform, for good reason.

In the same way, Man behaves in such a manner that is consistent with his nature, aka the flesh. No man seeks after God, no one can on his/her own choose to follow God. The initiation of spiritual life in a person's heart is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the "seeker" mentality which leads some to God. God at salvation transforms us, and begins to make us more like Christ, the process of putting off the old, putting on the new, but our changed nature is a point in time where we are enabled to seek after God and follow Christ.

Did Adam and Eve choose to sin, yes, were they, and subsequently us, held responsible for their decisions, yes, but it did not take God by surprise, since something happening outside of his knowledge or decree would be contrary to his very nature, as the creator and the sovereign God.

 

[superdave]

What difference does this make practically speaking?

Just curious.

It really changes your perspective. And I think can give real Holy Spirit power to your ministry, when you approach events and activities with the mindset that your preparation and work will be in vain, unless God is the reason for and the power behind whatever it is you are doing. And that the purpose of all our activites ought to be ultimately to lift up God's name and reputation, not man's

From an obedience standpoint, we have been commanded to do several things. We have been told to go and preach the gospel, God has chosen to use us to do this, not by writing his word in the clouds or something. We need to be diligent, and our ministries need to be committed to excellence. We need to be careful not to distract or turn people away from the truth unneccessarily, but we also need to recognize that it is God who does the drawing, and God who enables people to pursue him. It will not neccessarily change your activities, but it will change how you view their purpose, and their importance

Practically speaking, the belief in God's sovereignty has transformed my prayer life. And it has forced me to ask for God to deal with issues in my life, rather than relying solely on willpower or false guilt. It is a humbling truth to recognize that it is all about God, and making him famous, not our own name, our pastor's name, or our church's name. It has placed our church in a place of great spiritual blessing, and it has made other people see the work that God is doing, not the work that any one person or group of people is doing.