Are Arminians Saved?

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It was not the saving act itself but rather the expression of obedience that sprang from faith that God would operate according to his promise.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is exactly how we are saved today.

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
This is exactly how we are saved today.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your point is ... ???

 

[Eladar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The issue is what did the blood/death of Christ do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't believe the question is exactly what did it do, the question is what is God's plan.

The obedient who have faith that God will operate according to his promises will receive salvation. This is God's plan. In order for us to be obedient, we must carry out his will.

A sacrafice given by an unrighteous man meant absolutely nothing before Christ. In the same way, Jesus sacrafice means absolutely nothing for the unrighteous man.

God's plan has to do with obedience and righteousness. Not one of us is perfectly righteous. Such a demand would be unattainable, but one can do his best to be obedient to God and trust that Jesus' sacrafice will make up for the rest.

By the way, just as Jesus' sacrifice only covers His people, in Egypt the blood of the lamb only worked for the Hebrews.

 

[S. Baptist]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
S.Baptist stated,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adam's sin does condemn all men but if I use your argument then after Christ death it
should have freed all men regardless of what they believe.

That's right, now why doesn't it free all men???

Christ death is for the elect (Mt.20:28)that is for all who believe!

Whoa, back up there, who is the elect, all who believe

And what does the person do to become part of the "elect", "BELIEVE".

Is "believing or not believing" a "Choice" God makes "FOR THEM", or is it a "choice" left
entirely up to the individual???

Under "pre election", God makes the choice "for them".

Under "free will", the person makes the choice.

Calvinists however believe the reason people believe on Christ is because they are the
elect and have been enabled by the Holy Spirit.

OK, God give some "special treatment" as compared to others, that's why they are saved and
others aren't, is God a "respector of persons??

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Why does God call many, yet enable only a few to be saved?? If it's "irresistible Grace", the
only reason "many" aren't saved is "God's fault", God didn't give them the "special treatment"
of the others.

Why would God tempt (call) "many" with a salvation he has no intentions of giving them??

God doesn't even tempt man "with evil", much less predestinate him to "BE EVIL". Jas 1:13

Adam's fall separated "ALL" mankind from God, Jesus righteousness can "Reconcile "ALL"
mankind back to God, ...IF..."IF"....they believe. (FAITH, individual choice)

The "Work" of reconciling ALL" mankind back to God is "FINISHED", that why Jesus died
for the "sins of the whole world", not just some, (elect).

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto
justification of life.

If God only gives "FAITH" to a "few", then Jesus died "in vain" for many.

Even you will admit that those who reject Christ receive no benefits from the atonement of
Christ.

No benefits??? It the "Justification for their condemnation".

You're not condemned for being a sinner, you're condemned because "ALL SINS" have been
paid for, but individuals "CHOSE" not to accept Jesus's payment, so the "wages" are still due.

When anyone "preaches/teaches" that Jesus didn't die for "EVERYONE'S" sin, regardless if
they're saved or lost, they preach/teach a "lie".

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all,

Who's fault is it "ALL MEN" are not saved, God's or man's???

 

[S. Baptist]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


Did it propitiate the wrath of God or did it only make propitiation possible.

By the way, the applying of the blood on the doorposts was an expression of faith. It was not the saving act itself but rather the expression of obedience that sprang from faith that God would operate according to his promise.

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would they have been "saved" if "THEY" had not "HAD FAITH" to apply the blood???

God told them "what to do", but who had the final "CHOICE", them or God???

Would it have been "God's fault" if they died for not following his instructions, "all mankind" has the same "Choice" today, apply the blood, live, don't apply, die.

If an Egyptian has "stayed all night" in a house with the blood applied, he too would have been "saved", the "Death angel" doesn't go where the "blood has been applied".

Where there is propitiation there is no "wrath of God", both can't exist simultaneously.

 

[Eric B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You are right! That's why we don't preach that God predestined some to perish (without a choice). Man's choice in his self will is to continue to reject God. He is not in a neutral position.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You or someone keeps saying this, but when the question comes up of why God "leaves" those people to their "well deserved destruction", then out comes Romans 9 with the "vessels of wrath" and statements about "God's good pleasure" which we dare not question (not even the poor vessel of wrath himself). Does not this suggest predestination to perishing. (An active decree of God, not a passive allowing of the people to continue on their road.)
But suffice it to say, Romans 9 is out of context (talking about Israel as a nation and temporal judgements of Pharaoh and others) and Ezekiel 33:11 shows God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>PL:Adam's sin does condemn all men but if I use your argument then after Christ death it should have freed all men regardless of what they believe. SB:That's right, now why doesn't it free all men??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the question I was asking you which you ignored. You rightly say it is those who believe. You do not get that out of the passage. You have completed misunderstood Roman 5.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Whoa, back up there, who is the elect, all who believe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree with this. All the elect believe. Why do they believe? Because they are elect. If they were not elect, they would not believe. A person does become a part of the elect by believing. Scripture never, in any form, says this. You are failing to deal with the biblical teaching on election.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Calvinists however believe the reason people believe on Christ is because they are the
elect and have been enabled by the Holy Spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes we do because that is what the Bible teaches. At least on this point, you have rightly represented what we believe. Why don’t you show us a place where election is predicated on belief?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>OK, God give some "special treatment" as compared to others, that's why they are saved and others aren't, is God a "respector of persons?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes he would be. That is why your position is unbiblical. It makes God a respecter of those who choose him. One of the problems with your position is that you cannot really divorce works and merit from salvation. For you, those who are saved are those who merit it by their choice. For us, those who are saved are those who do not merit it because they cannot make a choice to please God, indeed they are unable to do so. (Matthew 22:14 does not deal with this issue; it deals with the kingdom and the nation of Israel.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Adam's fall separated "ALL" mankind from God, Jesus righteousness can "Reconcile "ALL" mankind back to God, ...IF..."IF"....they believe. (FAITH, individual choice) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is a prime example of where you misquote and misuse Scripture. The word “can” is not found in Rom 5 in the context of righteousness. The issue is that it “does” not that it can “do.” You say the issue is “if they believe;” I challenge you to find the conditional in Rom 5. It is not there.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If God only gives "FAITH" to a "few", then Jesus died "in vain" for many.
Even you will admit that those who reject Christ receive no benefits from the atonement of
Christ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, Jesus died in vain, only if the atonement was intended to save all. If the atonement accomplishes what it intended to, namely the salvation of the elect, then none of it was wasted. It is your position that has Jesus dying in vain for sins that were never going to be repented of. And No, I will not admit that those who reject Christ receive no benefit from the atonement. All men receive a benefit. The daily life and breath, the food, the rain on the just and unjust, all stem from the atonement for God can deal with sinful man in no way unless the atonement has an affect. They do not benefit salvifically from it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You're not condemned for being a sinner, you're condemned because "ALL SINS" have been paid for, but individuals "CHOSE" not to accept Jesus's payment, so the "wages" are still due. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again you are misrepresenting Scripture. We are condemned because of sin. I do not know how you can deny that.

On 1 Tim 2:4, no Calvinist denies that. It talks of God’s desirative will, not his decreed will.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
Would they have been "saved" if "THEY" had not "HAD FAITH" to apply the blood???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but that is not the issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Would it have been "God's fault" if they died for not following his instructions, "all mankind" has the same "Choice" today, apply the blood, live, don't apply, die. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. And it is not God's fault if they die and go to hell today. God simply lets them do what they want to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Where there is propitiation there is no "wrath of God", both can't exist simultaneously.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you not see the contradiction between what you claim to believe and what you say here? This is exactly why your position is unbiblical.

Christ propitiated our sins. That is why we will not face the wrath of God on sin. The verse goes on to say that Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world. Therefore there is no wrath of God on the world. But we know that is not true. The wrath of God will come on those who do not believe.

If Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world, meaning man with distinction, then there can be no wrath of God on sin. Yet we know that God will pour out his wrath on sin. Therefore, either your previous arguments are wrong or this argument is wrong. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[S. Baptist]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
[QB]

Once again you are misrepresenting Scripture. We are condemned because of sin. I do not know how you can deny that.[/b]

Why are they still classified as sinners, "THEIR UNBELIEF", their "CHOICE", not God's.

One of the problems with your position is that you cannot really divorce works and merit from salvation. For you, those who are saved are those who merit it by their choice. For us, those who are saved are those who do not merit it because they cannot make a choice to please God, indeed they are unable to do so. (Matthew 22:14 does not deal with this issue; it deals with the kingdom and the nation of Israel.

What's your saying is that "Faith" is a "works" of the individual.

Do you understand the parable of Matt 22, in case you don't I'll explain it.

Jesus came to the Jew, but they rejected him, he then destroyed their "city", (Jerusalem 70ad), the Gospel was then taken to the Gentiles, and who was "BID" to "come to the wedding, "as many as they found, both good and bad", (whosoever will, many are called, few "CHOSE" to attend).

In the same way the Jews had the "CHOICE" to accept/turn down Jesus's invitation to the wedding, "SO DO GENTILES".

All were "BID" to come, "ASK", and If asked, then the "Choice" of attending or not, is "ENTIRELY" up to the individual, not God.

Lu 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Lu 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith?

Faith isn't a "works", it's a "belief", Faith isn't "Physical", it's "Spiritual".

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,


Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

"FAITH" is a "CHOICE" the individual makes, not God, and in making that "choice", the individual determines their final destination, not God.


The same "calling" goes out to the lost as the saved, the only difference is the "belief" in/of the person.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

The covenant we have with Jesus is a "CHOICE" we make, it isn't "FORCED" or "WITHHELD" from any person by predestination.

God created "ALL MEN", and "ALL MEN" sinned, however Jesus paid for the sins of "ALL MEN", because God isn't "WILLING" that "ANY MAN" should perish, however because of "Their Unbelief", many will, but due to "Their Faith", a "Few" will be saved.]

And whenever "ANYONE" preaches that God predestinated ANY MAN" to Hell, they preach a "lie".

The "ONLY REASON" men go to hell is "THEIR UNBELIEF", their fault, not God's.

 

[S. Baptist]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If Christ propitiated the sins of the whole world, meaning man with distinction, then there can be no wrath of God on sin. Yet we know that God will pour out his wrath on sin. Therefore, either your previous arguments are wrong or this argument is wrong. You cannot have it both ways.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus was the "substitute" (propitiation)sinner dying for everyone who "has faith" in him.

The wages of sin is death, Jesus died "for you". (in your place)


God "loved the whole world" and doesn't want any man under wrath.

Wrath on falls where there is sin, Jesus paid for all sin, If all men repented, there wouldn't be "wrath" from God,
but unbelief doesn't let Jesus's blood "wash away" all sins, so the wrath remains on sinners.


God prefers people to live, not die, it's why Jesus paid for "All sins", but the LIFE/DEATH CHOICE" is up too the individual.

They can chose to believe in Jesus or not believe, and they will be judged according to that "Choice", that's the "Free will" of man.

God has provided a way out of sin and against his wrath for the "Whole world".

Did God know it was going to be this way, of course he did, did he "Plan it", NO, it the results of God giving men "FREE WILL".

God gave Adam "dominion" over the earth, which includes "making choices", God gave man "laws", which he could chose to obey or not, and his plan of salvation men can chose to believe or not.

Predestination is so far removed from what's taught by the Bible, a person would have to be "in the dark" to believe it.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
Predestination is so far removed from what's taught by the Bible, a person would have to be "in the dark" to believe it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you so intent on lying?

****************
NASB Topical Index

PREDESTINATION (see CHOSEN; FOREKNOWLEDGE; SOVEREIGNTY)
To predestine means to “predetermine,” “foreordain,” or “mark off beforehand.” Biblical predestination is God’s eternal predetermination of all things according to His perfect will and character and for His own glory (Ps 145:17; Ro 11:36; Eph 1:6, 11–12, 14). Predestination encompasses both directly caused events (e.g., Genesis 1; Ps 33:9; Jam 1:18) and also divinely permitted events (e.g., Nu 22–24; Lu 22:21–22; Ac 2:23–24; 4:27–28). Scripture relates divine predestination primarily to God’s redemptive purposes for His people (De 7:7–8; Ac 18:10; Ro 8:28–30; 1 Pe 2:9). The Christian doctrine of predestination is distinct from fatalism, since Scripture affirms human responsibility along with divine sovereignty (Ac 2:23, 36; Php 2:12–13).

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[Chris Temple]

This thread has moved far off from its original subject, Are Arminians Saved?, that I'm closing it. There are plenty of other threads arguing pro and con Calvinism.