Are Babies born in a state of innocence?

[HankD]

There is nothing to commend us to God from cradle to grave, from cute little "innocent baby" to lovable grandma/grandpa.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[AustinC]

How old? When do we start sinning? I don't see any Scriptural support for your position.

Researchers found that babies start lying by as early as 6 months.

Babies not as innocent as they pretend

 

[Van]

Are some posters denying that all mankind is "made sinners?" Why do we go over this same point again and again. Are those conceived, before they have done anything good or bad condemned already because of unbelief? And why would they need to obtain God's grace through faith if they were not already condemned?
The basic biblical truth that is being denied is all mankind is conceived in sin, therefore into a separated from God unholy state. The number of verses that must be nullified to deny this basic truth is large.

And why do these people deny God's truth? They want innocent babies, that have done nothing bad to go to heaven. And so, using ends to justify bogus means, they misrepresent verse after verse after verse. These twisters of truth are of the same mind as those who believed in baby baptism in years past.

 

[rlvaughn]

Are Babies born in a state of innocence? Or are they already sinners when born?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die...
Ephesians 2:3 ... we all ... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Here are three syllogisms based on these biblical facts:

Syllogism One

1. All people who are subject to death are in Adam.
2. All infants are subject to death.
3. Therefore, all infants are in Adam.

Syllogism Two

1. All who die are in Adam.
2. All who are in Adam are sinners.
3. Therefore, all who die are sinners.

Syllogism Three

1. All who are subject to death are sinners.
2. All infants are subject to death.
3. Therefore, all infants are sinners.

 

[AustinC]

Are some posters denying that all mankind is "made sinners?" Why do we go over this same point again and again. Are those conceived, before they have done anything good or bad condemned already because of unbelief? And why would they need to obtain God's grace through faith if they were not already condemned?
The basic biblical truth that is being denied is all mankind is conceived in sin, therefore into a separated from God unholy state. The number of verses that must be nullified to deny this basic truth is large.

And why do these people deny God's truth? They want innocent babies, that have done nothing bad to go to heaven. And so, using ends to justify bogus means, they misrepresent verse after verse after verse. These twisters of truth are of the same mind as those who believed in baby baptism in years past.

Yes, some posters have expressed Pelagian theology and declared that new borns are born holy and innocent with no sin, but society develops them into sinners.

 

[rlvaughn]

...declared that new borns are born holy and innocent with no sin, but society develops them into sinners.

Well, based solely on observation and experience, if that were so, society is "batting 1000."

 

[HankD]

The reason some folks (notice I said some) want to say a baby is innocent (no sin of any kind) is because they want some GOODNESS SOMEWHERE in man. There is NONE. The only thing going for us is we are created in HIS image.

We are a fallen race cradle to grave headed for the lake of fire unless we are born of the Spirit here on earth,

Does God make an exception for little ones who "neither having done any good or evil" but only corrupted with original sin?

Yes I believe He does.

 

[church mouse guy]

Yes, some posters have expressed Pelagian theology and declared that new borns are born holy and innocent with no sin, but society develops them into sinners.

Russeau and the Enlightenment believed that man was born good. They were not Christians but opponents of Christianity. The American public believes that there is some good in everyone, which contradicts the truth that only God is good.

 

[evenifigoalone]

So do you think E Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23 or Romans 5:12 is merely hyperhole?

No, but I do question if it truly includes babies or not.

And babies as young as birth are capable of being selfish.

How so?

The question really then is are we seen by God as being sinners only after we choose to sin against Him, or are we already seen as such when born?

I would say we are, God can see our hearts and the things we desire, as well as past, present, and future.

 

[rlvaughn]

The reason some folks (notice I said some) want to say a baby is innocent (no sin of any kind) is because they want some GOODNESS SOMEWHERE in man.

Right, Hank. It is also worth noting that when some people speak of innocent babes they are not speaking theologically. In other words, I have heard people who believe in inherited Adamic sin nature also speak of babies as being "innocent." May have done so myself, though I try not to because of the possible confusion.

So, it is good to find out what people mean when they are speaking about babies being innocent. They may mean no sin or they may not.

 

[church mouse guy]

Right, Hank. It is also worth noting that when some people speak of innocent babes they are not speaking theologically. In other words, I have heard people who believe in inherited Adamic sin nature also speak of babies as being "innocent." May have done so myself, though I try not to because of the possible confusion.

So, it is good to find out what people mean when they are speaking about babies being innocent. They may mean no sin or they may not.

I agree that you can't draw theological conclusions from colloquial speech. I also agree with your syllogisms above that logically conclude that babies are born sinners.

I really don't know why this is the subject of debate except that I think that it reflects the political system wherein it is beneficial for politicians to say that there is good in everybody. Given the political climate today, I doubt if the politicians mean that there is good in Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. So people need to look to Scripture and not to politics to find out if people are born good, which Christianity has never taught anything except original sin no matter what name you use. I am also surprised that Calvinists want to debate the issue of babies being born sinners.

 

[Van]

The issue is not whether babies have done anything bad, according to scripture they have not. But were they "made sinners?" Yes. We they conceived in sin? Yes Are they condemned already because of unbelief? Yes

Psalms 51:5
Romans 5:19
John 3:18
Romans 9:11

 

[evenifigoalone]

Here is my view: babies have a sin nature, whether they do or can act on it or not. They still need Jesus just as much as the rest of us. If an infant dies an early death however before they are old enough to accept Jesus, I do believe they go to heaven.

 

[HankD]

Right, Hank. It is also worth noting that when some people speak of innocent babes they are not speaking theologically. In other words, I have heard people who believe in inherited Adamic sin nature also speak of babies as being "innocent." May have done so myself, though I try not to because of the possible confusion.

So, it is good to find out what people mean when they are speaking about babies being innocent. They may mean no sin or they may not.

yes I also have used that terminology "innocent" - without malice or evil intent...

 

[agedman]

Rebellion is bound in the heart of a child but that doesn’t imply infants.

When David’s infant with Bathsheba died, David stated that he would join the infant. That indicates where the infant was residing.

It also presents that babies do in fact reside in some state manner of “safe” until accountable.

I leave assignment to condemnation to others concerning those incapable of the right hand from the left and have not learned discernment of good and evil.

 

[church mouse guy]

Rebellion is bound in the heart of a child but that doesn’t imply infants.

When David’s infant with Bathsheba died, David stated that he would join the infant. That indicates where the infant was residing.

It also presents that babies do in fact reside in some state manner of “safe” until accountable.

I leave assignment to condemnation to others concerning those incapable of the right hand from the left and have not learned discernment of good and evil.

Some of these people do not believe in an age of accountability but say some are elect so not only have some followed the Enlightenment and others in rejecting original sin but others have said that some babies who die go to hell because they are not elect. (For the record, I think both are extremes far out of the mainstream and I believe in original sin and the age of accountability.)

 

[1689Dave]

Or are they already sinners when born?

They die because of Adam's imputed sin.

 

[kyredneck]

The reason some folks (notice I said some) want to say a baby is innocent (no sin of any kind) is because they want some GOODNESS SOMEWHERE in man.

Maybe the reason for some, but what if THE SCOPE OF THE ATONEMENT included removal of the guilt of Adam's sin and all are now born innocent and become guilty of their own accord?

 

[Aaron]

How old? When do we start sinning? I don't see any Scriptural support for your position.

When do we start doing good?

 

[Aaron]

Maybe the reason for some, but what if THE SCOPE OF THE ATONEMENT included removal of the guilt of Adam's sin and all are now born innocent and become guilty of their own accord?

That makes the work of the Cross something that can be undone.