Are Bapticostal welcome here.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
--A command for every believer.

Acts 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

I believe that I was filled with the Holy Spirit on Sunday morning. I preached with boldness and fervency. The minute I said Amen, a great windstorm suddenly came up, like a blizzard. The power went out, not only in our church, but in areas all over the city. Have you ever seen a thunderstorm in the middle of winter with thunder and lightening. You might call it an act of God, but it certainly is an unusual occurence.

What ever your outlook, it has nothing to do with the gifts of the spirits mentioned in 1Cor.12. They have ceased. That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit doesn't work in the lives on individuals anymore. He certainly does, but not through the gifts that were for the Apostolic Age.
BTW, I believe that the timing of that storm and the ending of my message was purely coincidental, and not a result of my message.
DHK

 

Fare thee well Fat Eagle..


DHK I see you are still stuck on that gifts have
ceased sillyness.. that is a shame.
It is also rahter incorrect.. you are entitled to
your opinion though..


Plain Ol Ralph,

you stated thus:
==========================================
Baptist is NOT equal to Bapticostal; seems they should learn this.

Bapticostal IS equal to charismatic; they should also learn this.

Baptists are NOT charismatic; PERIOD.

===============================================
I am quite happy to say that you are incorrect on
the first two counts... and only partially correct
on the third.


mark

 

It is more than opinion Mark. It is a Scriptural point of view. It is one that I have given time and again, that no one has refuted yet.
Not even getting into "the tongues have ceased" argument from 1Cor.13:8-13, which in itself presents a good argument. There are many other reasons that point to the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit. I will give you two.

1. 1Cor.14:21,22
1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

In verse 21 Paul quotes from the Old Testament (Isaiah 28:11,12). The term "this people" refers to the nation of Israel, as it did in Isaiah 28. Paul points back to the prophecy and shows them that it was prophesied long ago that strangers would speak in foreign languages (tongues) as a sign to them of the truth of God's message. But they would not believe. Isaiah was right. They did not believe. As a result judgement came, as Isaiah predicted. Tongues was a sign to the Jewish nation of the first century. It was primarily fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. But the sign lasted for that generation of people who were there on the Day of Pentecost--in other words, it was for the first century Jews, for the Apostolic Age. Tongues was a sign to "this people," the Jewish nation, in the first century. There is no clearer teaching then that in 1Cor.14:21.
Then Paul clarifies his point even further in verse 21.
He states that tongues are for a sign not to them believe, but to them that believe not. The two statements are connected by "wherefore." The context tells us that they are talking of the same thing. Tongues are sing for unbelievers, but not just any unbelievers--unbelieving Jews, specifically the unbelieving Jews of the first century. Those Jews rejected this sign that God had given to them. The sign of tongues slowly faded out until it was completely gone by the end of the first century. History bears that out. Tongues have ceased. They have fulfilled their function. They are no longer needed today. They were a sign for the unbelieving Jew of the first century. We don't have unbelieving Jews of the first century alive today. Good thing too!!

2nd Argument.
If the gifts are for today, then the onus is on you to prove that they exist today, with credible proof.
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Notice that the Apostles had the power to heal every one that came to them. They had the gift of healing. This is a supernatural gift of the Spirit, like tongues, that ended at the end of the first century. The Apostles could heal ALL that came to them. If this gift is operative today, show me one person in any part of the world who has it. Show me anyone who is willing to go into our hospitals, walk up and down the corridors, and heal all that are in the hospitals. Why is it that there are no such "faith healers" today? The simple answer is that the gifts have ceased. Unless you can come up with credible evidence to prove that this gift hasn't ceased, why should we believe, that not only this gift has ceased, but all the others as well?
DHK

 

Paul didn't heal Timothy..

You do not seem to understand a few issues here DHK..
There is much nonsense out there about the 'gifts'
There are also those whom God chooses to still use
in interesting ways..
It is HIS call to do as He will..

Have to tell you though... one of the instances where
tongues was in evidence fairly recently.. it was
not a Jew that got saved. so it is obviously
a sign to others as well as '1st century Jews'

I agree with you that much of what seems to pass
for gifts in todays churches is false..
That does not mean that God is unable to give
gifts as He sees fit...

I have read many of the arguments for the gifts
ceasing in the first century.. but I disagree with
the interpetation that they are operating from.

perhaps more later.. however, as it is Christmas Eve..
I shall refrain from getting any farther into the argument
this evening..

Merry Christmas...
mark

 

There is a good deal I do understand Mark.
You cannot answer my challenge. You cannot point to a single person who has the genuine gift of healing today. The reason is obvious. The gifts have ceased.

It is not God's will that all people be healed at all times. Thus the Apostle Paul could not heal himself (2Cor.12), nor Timothy, nor Epaphroditus, nor Trophimus. All these individuals remained sick, according to the will of God, until it was God's will that they were healed. In Paul's case he suffered with that thorn in the flesh (probably an eye affliction) for the rest of his life.

But that doesn't negate the gift of healing that they did have. They were able to exercise the gift of healing at certain times in the ministry and invite all to be healed. And the fact remains that all who came to them were healed--no one went away disappointed, unlike the frauds that pedal their wares as faith healers today.

Examples:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--every one means exactly what it says--every single one of them--no one excluded. That means the ones with broken arms, broken legs, "wheel-chair" cases, etc.

Acts 28:8-9 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:
--Others also came which had diseases.
It seems here also that Paul was able to heal all that came to him. He didn't refuse anyone.

Please point me to someone who has this ability today. Who today has this genuine gift of healing, such as the Apostles did. No running around the bush here? I want a name. I want to know someone who can walk up and down the corridors of a hospital and heal all those who need to be healed. I submit to you that ALL those that claim to be faith healers today are frauds.
DHK

 

Poll Results:
Are Bapticostal welcome here.
Choose 1
yes 78% (32)
no 22% (9)

The poll results indicate Bapticostals are welcome here by 78%.

But the posts indicate the opposite.

Next, the KJVOs must leave.

Then all post-tribbers must go.

All 7th day Baptists must go, too.

All should choose one way or another - are you Calvinist or Armenian? No middle ground here, one way or the other.

No CCM either, strictly old hymns of the faith and they must be doctrinally and theologically correct to the T.

And if you are in-between Baptist churches, you shouldn't be allowed to post in the BO forum.

Where will it end?

 

This data strongly suggests to me that there are many fine Baptist members of this message board who are afraid to publicly express their views because they are afraid of reprisals from other Baptists . This is indeed a VERY sad thing , and I believe that it reflects the ignorance and bigotry that is today so very prevalent among many of those who call themselves Baptists but dishonor our heritage and the God we serve.

 

The poll was flawed from the beginning.
"Bapticostals are welcome here"
Please define "here"
Is "here" the entire BB.
Or is "here" the Baptist only forums in which we are now posting.
Does "here" include the non-Baptist forums which I believe the Baptistcostals ought to be posting in, then of course they are welcome HERE, which is actually THERE. The wording of the poll is flawed.
DHK

 

The poll is not as seriously flawed as the attitude expressed by many in this thread.

 

Why are there so many Baptist Churches? Because people have to force others to accept their opinions which are all well Scripturally based yet are still different. Churches split over some really silly reasons, yet as long as people feel that they are hurting others but it is all for God then that is o.k.

I would like to see some of the denominations come back together. That would be more like the teaching of the Bible in a real outworking in the life of the church.

 

Baptist Standard

 

LadyEagle, the Baptist Standard Article you reference above is 5 years old. Nevertheless, it remains relevant and appears representative of the experiences and characteristic of a movement that began near the Toronto airport in the early 1990's and has spread all over the world.

I don't know about Chattanooga or the other churches mentioned in the article, but the Pensacola/Brownsville 'outpouring', a key component of this movement, is a well documented counterfeit. FWIW, the key thing to understand is these people, sadly, are not making this stuff up. They are having real experiences because there are real spirits involved, a very real, counterfeit 'holy spirit' with real, supernatural power.

This is not to say that there is no such thing as a genuine move or gift of the Holy Spirit, as I said in an earlier post in this thread. To me, the fact that millions have been seduced by a counterfeit spirit itself points to a genuine remnant of believers who have received a gift of some kind. This particular movement, known as the Vineyard, Toronto Blessing, River Revival, Brownsville Revival and by other names, is loosely integrated with other movements, 'cousins' I would call them, such as Latter Rain, Restoration, Word of Faith and others, and include all kinds of minor movements such as God Chasers and Kansas City Prophets. [All of which are, to some extent, connected to larger deceptions like the overall Counterfeit Revival and, more recently, the New Apostolic Reformation, led by C.Peter Wagner of Fuller Theological Seminary. Interestingly, C.Peter Wagner is also a major player in the Purpose-Driven, Seeker-Sensitive phenomenons, important components of the greater Church Growth Movement.]

Obviously, as the article, this thread and other threads here demonstrate, this phenonmenon, like some of the others, is very much "in the face" of the present day Baptist church, and the church overall. I suspect avoiding these attacks will prove to be difficult.

For anyone interested in more information on this particular movement, a good place to start reading is HERE. Don't forget to check the archives, where most of the information is. Also, as astonishing as this information is, I should mention that an almost identical, counterfeit movement of the spirit was documented well over a hundred years ago, at the beginning of the "so called" Renewal.

[ December 28, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: IveyLeaguer ]