Are Baptists ONLY the Bride of Christ?

[Tom Butler]

Well, think that we could safely exclude as being NT churches any that denied full inerrancy/infallibility/authority pf the Bible, denied second coming, and taught other ways to heaven in addition to Jesus!
Also, deny as being real any groups that hold extra authority in addition to Bible, such as the RCC/word of faith etc, and those such as Church of Christ that add baptism as requirement to salvation!

This is a good start. Let's take this a step further. Let's say someone from one of those groups asks for membership in your church. Would you accept them? Would you require them to be baptized? Even if their original baptism was by immersion?

 

[Crabtownboy]

From prior post by Tom Butler...
It is an offshoot of Landmarkism, though not every Landmarker subscribes to it.

Here's the way it was first explained to me: Since Baptists are like the church established by Jesus during his earthly ministry, Baptist churches are true New Testament Churches, as are those who may not call themselves Baptist, but hold similar basic doctrines. That means other faith groups, which differ with Baptists, are not true New Testament churches.

That is a most amazing statement, "the church established by Jesus."

Hate to tell folk but Jesus did not establish any churches during his life on earth. He went to the synagogue and they surely were not like Baptists today. I don't think they would have tolerated a Baptist business meeting and voting. In fact, many Baptist business meetings are the best example of what is wrong with democracy. :laugh:

I doubt Paul would have cottened to a vote going against him, at least he would not have gone 'gently into the night'.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Crabtownboy

I had not heard of this strange idea before the OP. It reminds me of the prayer Carlyle Marney gave at a SBC convention. He stood before 10,000 people and prayed:

"Lord, make us as great as we think we are.

In Jesus name,

Amen."

Are you serious, or just kidding?? Did that guy REALLY SAY THAT??

 

[Tom Butler]

Seems to me the belief expressed in the OP belong to people who are victims of the We are the only ones complex. Of course I am sure they are not the only ones.

Let me get your opinion.

What non-Baptist groups, if any, would qualify as true NT churches? I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just a few examples. Would you also give your rationale for their inclusion in your list?

At the same time, what are some groups whose doctrines would disqualify them as NT churches.

DaChaser1 listed some "deal breakers." What are some of yours?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here's the way it was first explained to me: Since Baptists are like the church established by Jesus during his earthly ministry, Baptist churches are true New Testament Churches, as are those who may not call themselves Baptist, but hold similar basic doctrines. That means other faith groups, which differ with Baptists, are not true New Testament churches.

This is just so horribly sad and...and to be honest...weird.

I am a happy, contented, "card carrying" baptist, but those views articulated up there are just SOOO wrong.

The truth is that Gods Church is world wide. It is sometimes referred to as the universal church, and I am fine with that description because it is true.

Regarding the issue of "gathering", the scriptures clearly inform us that our Father God wants us to gather regularly...so we joyfully do so.

Where do we do that?

Wherever 2 or more are gathered together as christians...Christ is their in the midst. It can be in a dedicated building , on a beach under a tree or in someones living room.

Its just so sad when man made religious regulations and dictates turn this world wide Kingdom of God into something that is man made rather then Divinely brought into existence.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Let me get your opinion.

What non-Baptist groups, if any, would qualify as true NT churches? I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just a few examples. Would you also give your rationale for their inclusion in your list?

The Anabaptist. By the way do not go to Europe and try to tell Anabaptist they are Baptists. It won't fly either direction.

My guess is that many of the house churches in China would fit in also. There are so many groups around the world that I am unaware of that it seems a bit rediculous to even try to make a list. In fact now that I think about house churches they probably come closest to the early NT church than established churches with buildings and staff, utility bills, parking lots, day schools and political correctness, both conservative, fundamental and liberal.

At the same time, what are some groups whose doctrines would disqualify them as NT churches.

I feel it is very dangerous to play "god" and say who is and who is not "right with God. Every group, let me repeat every group has mistakes in their beliefs. There is not one group, nor one person who has it all right. So, in a way perhaps there are no NT churches in the scriptural sense of the word.

I certainly am not arrogant enough to say that my particular brand of Baptist is the only one.

By the way, Baptist covers a lot of territory. So, are all Baptist included as the Bride ... or just select Baptist. If select, which ones?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

It is not condescending and those who hold to it are not arrogant, and it is not a vile doctrine.

You are welcome to disagree with the view, and you will have plenty of company. And you are welcome to argue why you disagree with it.

Impugning sincere brothers and sisters is not an argument.

It is the very definition of arrogance for one baptist group to consider themselves to have a greater place in the family of God than any one else. It is wickedness. God hates pride; that is an irrefutable fact. Baptist briders will be shocked when they sit at the marriage supper & see the multitude of non-baptists & non-briders between them & the Saviour.

 

[Tom Butler]

The Anabaptist. By the way do not go to Europe and try to tell Anabaptist they are Baptists. It won't fly either direction.

My guess is that many of the house churches in China would fit in also. There are so many groups around the world that I am unaware of that it seems a bit ridiculous to even try to make a list. In fact now that I think about house churches they probably come closest to the early NT church than established churches with buildings and staff, utility bills, parking lots, day schools and political correctness, both conservative, fundamental and liberal.

I was thinking more about some denominations that we might be familiar with. Such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, and the like. Do they qualify as NT churches

I feel it is very dangerous to play "god" and say who is and who is not "right with God. Every group, let me repeat every group has mistakes in their beliefs. There is not one group, nor one person who has it all right. So, in a way perhaps there are no NT churches in the scriptural sense of the word.

I'm not asking about those faith groups which you describe. I'm asking which of them, in your opinion, are fatally flawed.

I certainly am not arrogant enough to say that my particular brand of Baptist is the only one.

By the way, Baptist covers a lot of territory. So, are all Baptist included as the Bride ... or just select Baptist. If select, which ones?

Oh, I agree, I would not say my brand of Baptist is the only one, either. But I would argue that my brand of Baptist church is a true New Testament Church. And I would argue that some Baptist groups don't qualify as NT churches.

About the Bride, we'll all be part of it in heaven, even if we're in the wrong church on earth.

 

[Tom Butler]

It is the very definition of arrogance for one baptist group to consider themselves to have a greater place in the family of God than any one else. It is wickedness. God hates pride; that is an irrefutable fact. Baptist briders will be shocked when they sit at the marriage supper & see the multitude of non-baptists & non-briders between them & the Saviour.

I'm not a Baptist Bride kind of guy, but I've known some and there's not an arrogant bone in their bodies. They are godly people and not prideful at all.

Let me pose a question. You are a member of a Baptist church. Do you believe your church teaches Biblical truth? I doubt if you'd be there if you didn't believe it.

You understand, of course, that some of the doctrines you believe are Biblical truth are opposite from what other churches believe. By definition they are in error, even heretical. Is it arrogant for you to believe that you are right and others are wrong? Is it prideful? Of course not. I suspect you've arrived at your views through diligent study, and have put them to the test many times.

The Baptist Briders I know have done the same. They have approached the scriptures with humility and this is what they have found. They may not even like this view, but they are bound to submit to what they believe is Biblical truth.

 

[jaigner]

Do you hold that we will be seperate from rest of the Body of Christ, ONLY we are His bride, a seperate group, as we ALONE are really NT church?

IF yes, scripture please!

Forgive me, but this is pure crap.

 

[Tom Butler]

That is a most amazing statement, "the church established by Jesus."

Hate to tell folk but Jesus did not establish any churches during his life on earth. He went to the synagogue and they surely were not like Baptists today. I don't think they would have tolerated a Baptist business meeting and voting. In fact, many Baptist business meetings are the best example of what is wrong with democracy. :laugh:

I doubt Paul would have cottened to a vote going against him, at least he would not have gone 'gently into the night'.

Well, CTB, let's look at a few things.

Before Pentecost, the traveling band of disciples:
Had a Head and it had a treasurer.
It had a Teacher.
Its members were baptized believers.
It had ordinances--baptism and the Lord's Supper
It had two commission: First in Matthew 10, then in Matthew 28:19-20.
It had the gospel.
It had supernatural power Luke 10:17 "Lord, even the demons are subject to us."
Jesus taught about church discipline Matthew 18:15-17 "Tell it to the church."

Ah, one may say, but it did not yet have the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.
Uh, John 20:22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said, 'receive ye the Holy Spirit.'" This, by the way, was post-resurrection.

And, of course, it had a business meeting to pick a successor for Judas.

 

[Tom Butler]

The Anabaptist. By the way do not go to Europe and try to tell Anabaptist they are Baptists. It won't fly either direction.

I won't. But I'm open to some education. Why do you say that Anabaptists were not the precursors to Baptists?

I'm sure you can cite some authority for that, just as I can find a bunch writers who list the Anabaptists of the 16th century as Baptist ancestors, along with the Waldenses and others dating back well before the Reformation.

And even some Catholic historians say that the Waldenses have their roots in Apostolic times.

I am aware that not all Anabaptist group were the same.

 

[DaChaser1]

This is a good start. Let's take this a step further. Let's say someone from one of those groups asks for membership in your church. Would you accept them? Would you require them to be baptized? Even if their original baptism was by immersion?

IF the person was baptised by say Church of Christ, or RCC, would ask them to be rebaptised, as we would not hold that their original one was "valid"...

This would only be IF they had applied for membership consideration!

Another thing to consider in this is that we tend to see that there are true Christians within group such as even RCC/Church of Christ etc, but that would be DESPITE their official church doctrines...

So would see individuals as being part of the NT church at large, Body of Christ m but NOT their churches setting in!

think also have to realise that in this discussion , that we might disagreein this to some degree due to us seeing that there is a Universal Church of all true believers, and also there are individual assemblies/churches that fit NT church mandate....

So would be NT churches, and individual members of Christ bodies sitting among non NT churches...

 

[DaChaser1]

Let me get your opinion.

What non-Baptist groups, if any, would qualify as true NT churches? I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just a few examples. Would you also give your rationale for their inclusion in your list?

At the same time, what are some groups whose doctrines would disqualify them as NT churches.

DaChaser1 listed some "deal breakers." What are some of yours?

Aklso would add that any group that denies the Cross, Jesus Only way to be saved, denies the Bible as being inspired/infallible and sole authority....

 

[Tom Butler]

Aklso would add that any group that denies the Cross, Jesus Only way to be saved, denies the Bible as being inspired/infallible and sole authority....

Do you wanna name names?

 

[DaChaser1]

Do you wanna name names?

basically, "liberal" Christianity wing, churches/groups that would see all religions getting to god, that we are called to love/accept others period, and have the ole 'social Gospel" agenda going on!

Some also add to the Gospel things "must do" in order to be saved!

Church of Christ
jesus Only
RCC
Emergent movement
word of faith movement/prosperity/health and wealth
"feel good" Gospel of the Schulers/Olsteen etc
Liberal "protestant" wing of the Church

 

[Tom Butler]

basically, "liberal" Christianity wing, churches/groups that would see all religions getting to god, that we are called to love/accept others period, and have the ole 'social Gospel" agenda going on!

Some also add to the Gospel things "must do" in order to be saved!

Church of Christ
jesus Only
RCC
Emergent movement
word of faith movement/prosperity/health and wealth
"feel good" Gospel of the Schulers/Olsteen etc
Liberal "protestant" wing of the Church

Thanks for the specifics. Do I assume correctly that if anyone from these groups who became convinced that Baptists believe correctly, and desire to join your church, you would require him to submit to Baptist baptism?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I won't. But I'm open to some education. Why do you say that Anabaptists were not the precursors to Baptists?

I'm sure you can cite some authority for that, just as I can find a bunch writers who list the Anabaptists of the 16th century as Baptist ancestors, along with the Waldenses and others dating back well before the Reformation.

And even some Catholic historians say that the Waldenses have their roots in Apostolic times.

I am aware that not all Anabaptist group were the same.

I was thinking more of modern Anabaptist. The European Anabaptist do not want to be associated in anyone's mind as part of the American Baptist community ... especially the SBC. They see the SBC as pernicious and dictatorial, a lack of caring for those in need, an over concern about money [they pick this up from our culture IMHO], and also much too militaristic. I am sure you realize that the Anabaptist are primarily pacifistic.

Anabaptists (Greek ανα (again, twice) +βαπτιζω (baptize), thus "re-baptizers"[1]) are Protestant Christians of the Radical Reformation of 16th-century Europe, although some consider Anabaptism to be a distinct movement from Protestantism.[2] The Amish, Hutterites, and Mennonites are direct descendants of the movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist

There are beliefs that Baptists and Anabaptists have in common. Believers Baptism and the symbolism of Communion are examples. The greatest divide is pacifism.

Connections between the Baptists and Anabaptists is a much-argued subject and many, many books have been written about this. The most obvious extension of the 16th century Anabaptists are the Mennonites and their related groups (like the Amish). There are evidences of Anabaptist influence on the 17th century English Baptists, but most modern scholars deny any direct connection. I believe that the influence was probably more than is generally allowed today.

However, the Anabaptists tended toward some beliefs that are not common among Baptists today. As a result of their persecution, they were totally opposed to any participation in government: no belonging to public office, etc. They were also against Christians participating in war. Some of them leaned toward baptismal regeneration and they were Armenian in theology

http://www.learnthebible.org/baptist-and-anabaptist.html

 

[Alcott]

Are Baptists ONLY the Bride of Christ?

No. With so many millions of us, I think we are also other things besides that.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Forgive me, but this is pure crap.

My goodness brother, what compels you to use sewer language? It is completely uneccesary, and inapropriate.

I am surprised it hasnt been deleted by a mod.