Are Baptists Protestants?

[saturneptune]

Whether you consider the questions important or not, this happens to be a Baptist history forum and they are fair game here. If you don't care what the answers are, feel free to ignore these discussions.

I feel free to answer as I did. I had a post to answer the thread earlier in the thread when the conversation was on an intelligent level. Since the term "murderous sacralists" was used to describe Protestants, whether we are Protestants or not, that post degraded the entire thread into a free for all. Unless I violate BB rules, I will answer as I see fit, and when I do not, a moderator can point it out to me.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I feel free to answer as I did. I had a post to answer the thread earlier in the thread when the conversation was on an intelligent level. Since the term "murderous sacralists" was used to describe Protestants, whether we are Protestants or not, that post degraded the entire thread into a free for all. Unless I violate BB rules, I will answer as I see fit, and when I do not, a moderator can point it out to me.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion as you are the only one to quote my opinion. First do you know what sacralist\sacralism means? If not, I suggest you get a copy of Leonard Verduin's "Refomers and their Stepchildren." Dr. Verduin was Dutch Reformed. As for murderous, may hap not in England, but on the continent the pages of history are bloody. For those accounts, I leave you to Christian's and Armitage's works.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I don't know how you came to this conclusion as you are the only one to quote my opinion. First do you know what sacralist\sacralism means? If not, I suggest yopu get a copy of Leonard Verduin's "Refomers and their Stepchildren." Dr. Verduin was Dutch Reformed. As for murderous, may hap not in England, but on the continent the pages of history are bloody. For those accounts, I leave to Christian's and Armitage's works.

Off subject. I haven't read "Refomers and their Stepchildren" in years. I had it in my mind Dr. Verduin was an ex Dutch Reformed theologian. Am I off base there? I must have given my copy away, can't find it on my book shelves.

I believe it was a very good study. But I lean very heavy in his direction of what he wrote in the book.

 

[saturneptune]

I don't know how you came to this conclusion as you are the only one to quote my opinion. First do you know what sacralist\sacralism means? If not, I suggest yopu get a copy of Leonard Verduin's "Refomers and their Stepchildren." Dr. Verduin was Dutch Reformed. As for murderous, may hap not in England, but on the continent the pages of history are bloody. For those accounts, I leave to Christian's and Armitage's works.

If I recall, the term meaning one entity of church and state with one changing the other, No, I have not read that particular book, although do have an idea of church and Protestant history. I think there is enough dirt to share among all the groups of the day. Anabaptists seem to have been the object of persecution by both Protestants and Catholics.

Personally, I do not believe Baptists are Protestants. While the evidence is not 100% conclusive, it certainly suggests it. That has nothing to do with my remark. People's opinion should be based on their judgement of the history written, not quaint catch phrases.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Personally, I do not believe Baptists are Protestants. While the evidence is not 100% conclusive, it certainly suggests it. That has nothing to do with my remark. People's opinion should be based on their judgement of the history written, not quaint catch phrases.

"Refomers and their Stepchildren." by Dr. Verduin agrees with much of what you said.

He give a little history that goes throughout the centuries as Donatists, Waldenses, Cathars, or Anabaptists,the "stepchildren" had the greatest impact in obtaining the religious liberties which we enjoy today.
Verduin spares no criticism of the Reformers, such as Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. He believed the Reformers at first allied with the stepchildren, the Reformers became their bitterest enemies when they allied themselves with the governing authorities and used civil and military force to coerce believers.
Many believe the stepchildren, many of whom emigrated to the American , rather than the Reformers, who had the greatest influence upon religious freedom and separation of church and state which was later incorporated into the First Ammendment of our Constitution. Many credit these type of Christians for pushing the First Ammendment and what it gave this country, once and for all, ended the notion that America would ever become a "Sacral" or theocratic society tied together by one religion.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I feel free to answer as I did. I had a post to answer the thread earlier in the thread when the conversation was on an intelligent level. Since the term "murderous sacralists" was used to describe Protestants, whether we are Protestants or not, that post degraded the entire thread into a free for all. Unless I violate BB rules, I will answer as I see fit, and when I do not, a moderator can point it out to me.

"Refomers and their Stepchildren." by Dr. Verduin agrees with much of what you said.

He give a little history that goes throughout the centuries as Donatists, Waldenses, Cathars, or Anabaptists,the "stepchildren" had the greatest impact in obtaining the religious liberties which we enjoy today.
Verduin spares no criticism of the Reformers, such as Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli. He believed the Reformers at first allied with the stepchildren, the Reformers became their bitterest enemies when they allied themselves with the governing authorities and used civil and military force to coerce believers.
Many believe the stepchildren, many of whom emigrated to the American , rather than the Reformers, who had the greatest influence upon religious freedom and separation of church and state which was later incorporated into the First Ammendment of our Constitution. Many credit these type of Christians for pushing the First Amendment and what it gave this country, once and for all, ended the notion that America would ever become a "Sacral" or theocratic society tied together by one religion.

The bolding lies behind my use of murderous. IOW, Luther, Calvin and their immediate supporters just didn't sit around the campfire singing "Kum By Ya" with our ancestors. Again, further, if you have read much of what I have written here over the last ten years, you'll see I don't use catch phrases or if I do such are original to myself. So, the proper reaction is "What do you mean by that?"

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The reason why the questions, "Are Baptists Protestants?" and "Do Baptists have a link to the first century church?" are so important is because they base the authority of the local church on the answers. You might as be asking, "What is a Baptist-Brider"; for these questions all come from the same source.

It is another example of how Popish some Baptist sects have become. Many claim the authority to be a true "New Testament Church"(& yes, that definition could be debated too) comes from their unbroken church succession back to the Christ Himself. We have become that which we have stood against.

I have debated many persons on the foolishness & unsustainability of this argument; but to no avail.

 

[Bob Alkire]

The reason why the questions, "Are Baptists Protestants?" and "Do Baptists have a link to the first century church?" ...I have debated many persons on the foolishness & unsustainability of this argument; but to no avail.

I don't know if I would agree with you. I went to a Presbyterian Seminary back in the day as they say today and we were taught there was always a group of believers from the cross on who were not in the RCC. We were taught much along the lines of what Dr. Verduin put in his book.

 

[glfredrick]

I don't know if I would agree with you. I went to a Presbyterian Seminary back in the day as they say today and we were taught there was always a group of believers from the cross on who were not in the RCC. We were taught much along the lines of what Dr. Verduin put in his book.

But, Baptists did not stem from those people.

They were directly influenced by Protestants and Ana-baptists, who were also directly influenced by Protestants.

Saying that two groups of unrelated people have the same theology or worldview is one thing. Making the claim that one group led directly to another by succession is another entirely. Apples and oranges...

 

[Bob Alkire]

But, Baptists did not stem from those people.

They were directly influenced by Protestants and Ana-baptists, who were also directly influenced by Protestants.

Saying that two groups of unrelated people have the same theology or worldview is one thing. Making the claim that one group led directly to another by succession is another entirely. Apples and oranges...

I not sure they didn't influenced many who are Baptist today. That is what I was taught even before I became a Baptist, and I still believe it. I've put many an hour of study into it over the years and I believe those folks had an influence on Baptist, Mennonites, Amish and many more. Now to be honest I haven't put much time into it over the past 10 year or so, but I haven't read anything to counter act what I was taught.

I doubt that your theology (soteriological view) and mine are the same, but I would fell we could learn from each other and glorify God while being together.

 

[glfredrick]

I not sure they didn't influenced many who are Baptist today. That is what I was taught even before I became a Baptist, and I still believe it. I've put many an hour of study into it over the years and I believe those folks had an influence on Baptist, Mennonites, Amish and many more. Now to be honest I haven't put much time into it over the past 10 year or so, but I haven't read anything to counter act what I was taught.

I doubt that your theology (soteriological view) and mine are the same, but I would fell we could learn from each other and glorify God while being together.

Absolutely! If there is one thing I have learned over the years, it is that all believers in Christ will one day stand arm-in-arm worshiping God in all His glory. Those from every tribe, tongue, and people, will gather together.

Paraphrasing Chuck Swindol, he says there are two big surprises of heaven. Some of the people that we'll see there, and that we're there to see them...

I have done some study of Baptist history at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. One thing that sticks out from that study is the lack of historicity of the claims that the Baptists stemmed from other groups alienated from the Catholics. The world just didn't work that way 500-1000 years ago. People could be completely isolated into a pocket of population and never know about others with like faith and practice a couple of hundred miles away. In the meantime, the one organized entity was the existing church, to which the vast majority, if not almost every person, were baptized into as infants. Such was simply the case in that world, where the choice of people was not what it is today since the Reformation.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Absolutely! If there is one thing I have learned over the years, it is that all believers in Christ will one day stand arm-in-arm worshiping God in all His glory. Those from every tribe, tongue, and people, will gather together.

Paraphrasing Chuck Swindol, he says there are two big surprises of heaven. Some of the people that we'll see there, and that we're there to see them...

Yes, my friend, we agree here.

I have done some study of Baptist history at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. One thing that sticks out from that study is the lack of historicity of the claims that the Baptists stemmed from other groups alienated from the Catholics.

This is were I think you miss understood me. All about the flow of that group of Christians that I learned was not in Baptist schools but a Presbyterians, Calvinistic school which was almost anti Baptist. I was taught in my home church and in seminary that a Baptist couldn't be a true Calvinistic.

The history of the Donatists, Waldenses, Cathars, Anabaptists and others shows that there had to be a following of Christ outside of the RCC. As Dr. Verduin points out even though there might not be a hundred percent conclusive, there is enough there to get a lot of facts, kind of like the Hittities use to be.

Also there is a lot about how the Reformers treated them, it was a shame.

I'm one that believes folks out of that camp had a rather big impact on this country.

 

[glfredrick]

This is were I think you miss understood me. All about the flow of that group of Christians that I learned was not in Baptist schools but a Presbyterians, Calvinistic school which was almost anti Baptist. I was taught in my home church and in seminary that a Baptist couldn't be a true Calvinistic.

I'm not sure why you would have been taught that -- it is patently false. There are certainly Baptists who are solidly 5-point Calvinistic and more who hold to 4 points (and the point missing floats, never the same for all). In fact, at Southern Seminary, my alma matter, the cry of Calvinist is brought against us on a regular basis. We may not be able to be true "Presbyterians" but we can adopt a Calvinistic theological stance.

Now, can we talk to you about your pesky practice of having someone else speak for your infants in baptism? :smilewinkgrin:

The history of the Donatists, Waldenses, Cathars, Anabaptists and others shows that there had to be a following of Christ outside of the RCC. As Dr. Verduin points out even though there might not be a hundred percent conclusive, there is enough there to get a lot of facts, kind of like the Hittities use to be.

Also there is a lot about how the Reformers treated them, it was a shame.

I'm one that believes folks out of that camp had a rather big impact on this country.

I readily admit that there was a following of Christ that rejected many of the Catholic theological tenets, but they would not be seen as apart from the catholic (small "c") faith. None of us are. We all stem from one faith, and that is, fortunately or unfortunately, named "catholic" (general, all inclusive) as well as Christian, and "Followers of the Way" (the Biblical name for the earliest disciples).

More so, and problematic for all of us, is the fact that many of those sects had heretical views in some area or another. So far, though, there are not many sects or denominations that do not have a point here or there that is out of sorts with the Scriptures. I think we all do!

They did have an impact, but not through direct succession. Of all those groups the only one that can actually be traced to the same local and time as the earliest Baptists are the Ana-baptists (followers of Menno Simmons). They were both in Holland at the same time and place while John Smyth was exiled from England. There is a high level of surety that they had contact, but there is no documented record that states so explicitly.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Off subject. I haven't read "Refomers and their Stepchildren" in years. I had it in my mind Dr. Verduin was an ex Dutch Reformed theologian. Am I off base there? I must have given my copy away, can't find it on my book shelves.

I believe it was a very good study. But I lean very heavy in his direction of what he wrote in the book.

There was nothing ex about Dr. Verduin's Dutch Reformism . That's what's nice about his book. If he had been a Baptist, then his neutrality could be questioned. Though, I do know a Lutheren who is taken aback by his treatment of Martin Luther et al.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Now, can we talk to you about your pesky practice of having someone else speak for your infants in baptism? :smilewinkgrin:

No, I left the Presbyterian Church and Calvinism my last semester of seminary.

I readily admit that there was a following of Christ that rejected many of the Catholic theological tenets, but they would not be seen as apart from the catholic (small "c") faith. None of us are. We all stem from one faith, and that is, fortunately or unfortunately, named "catholic" (general, all inclusive) as well as Christian, and "Followers of the Way" (the Biblical name for the earliest disciples).

They did have an impact, but not through direct succession. Of all those groups the only one that can actually be traced to the same local and time as the earliest Baptists are the Ana-baptists (followers of Menno Simmons). They were both in Holland at the same time and place while John Smyth was exiled from England. There is a high level of surety that they had contact, but there is no documented record that states so explicitly.

My friend we will differ on this. We had classes on this for two semesters in seminary and I still believe what I was taught about it. I'm saying many have benefited by the Christians outside the RCC, even though the RCC and the Reformers did treat them very nice.

 

[Bob Alkire]

There was nothing ex about Dr. Verduin's Dutch Reformism . That's what's nice about his book. If he had been a Baptist, then his neutrality could be questioned. Though, I do know a Lutheren who is taken aback by his treatment of Martin Luther et al.

I won't question you on this because it has been years back that I read the book and a few others like it, I even had brown hair then. I had it in my mind that a lot of the Reformers didn't care for him, and he was looked at as an outsider.

 

[JohnHunton]

We are not

If memory serves me right the official act of Church and state was in 251 A.D. Then the official Start of the Catholic Church was about 313 A.D. as they say if you are not Catholic then you are protestant. Well we know that the Church was started a in the time of Jesus read the last testimony of John the Baptist in the 3rd chapter of John. I dont believe the Church was called an actual name as being a denomination but rather the Church at Rome or the Church at Corinth or ect. It wasnt until later the denominations came into play because until about 251 A.D. there was no need

 

[ReformedBaptist]

NOt reading every post.

What about a Baptist who was a Roman Catholic, but came out of the RCC and joined a Baptist church? That would make at least that Baptist Protestant now wouldn't it? lol

Not me btw.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I won't question you on this because it has been years back that I read the book and a few others like it, I even had brown hair then. I had it in my mind that a lot of the Reformers didn't care for him, and he was looked at as an outsider.

As he challenged one of the basic tenants of Reformed Theology, I can see why he was considered an outsider. However, he kept his post at Calvin College. LV was not fired or prematurely retired.

 

[Bob Alkire]

As he challenged one of the basic tenants of Reformed Theology, I can see why he was considered an outsider. However, he kept his post at Calvin College. LV was not fired or prematurely retired.

That's great. As I said I enjoyed that book. I know when in seminary we had to go to a group of Ana baptists near Winchester, Va., and they had much writing along the lines of Dr. Verduin work.

We had a history department that taught a lot of history a long those lines, but with out much conviction. But they made us go over to Winchester,VA. and Harrison,Va. for more out side study along that same line.