Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Too bad RCs aren't allowed to sign-up and post here anymore to defend themselves.
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Are Catholics really Christians?
- Thread starter valueoftruth
- Start date
Zealouswest said
But the robber at the cross does show that while the sacriments like baptism are normatively necessary, God Himself is not limited to them
Do you mean that the Robber at the Cross was exempted from going to the Purgatory? or is he still there in purgatory?
But the robber at the cross does show that while the sacriments like baptism are normatively necessary, God Himself is not limited to them
Do you mean that the Robber at the Cross was exempted from going to the Purgatory? or is he still there in purgatory?
Rev. Lowery
New Member
Two things I know:
1. Christ = Salvation
2. No-Christ = Hell
Your works merely show the faith you have.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.
1. Christ = Salvation
2. No-Christ = Hell
Your works merely show the faith you have.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
(OF course I have to agree that TULIP is wrong)
Back to the thread though -- The RCC teaches that non-Catholics can NOT be saved under the New Covenant of scripture. The RCC claims that "some other means of grace" has to be found for us.
I don't see their position regarding us being too terribly different than what ValueOfTruth said about them.
Thoughts?
In Christ,
Bob
yes
no
no...I'm still forgiven. My Bible says Christ died ONCE for ALL my sins. The moment I breathe my last breath, my sin nature will be removed. I do not have to go to some heavenly detox station for the "unconfessed" sin. My justification is intact, and sins forgiven through Christ's blood.
"The wages of sin is death".
"Forgiveness" won't pay those wages,
"Repentance", won't pay those wages,
"Indulgences" won't pay those wages,
"without the shedding of blood, (DEATH) there is "NO REMISSION". (of sin)
"HOW" can any man "REMIT" (take away) the sins of another man???
"Only one way" and "ONLY ONE MAN", can "take away" (remit) sin, JESUS
If "ONE SIN" can be "taken away" without Jesus dying to fulfil the law for that sin, then "ALL SIN" can be taken away "WITHOUT JESUS",
Like to buy some "ocean front property" in "TN"???
"Forgiveness" won't pay those wages,
"Repentance", won't pay those wages,
"Indulgences" won't pay those wages,
"without the shedding of blood, (DEATH) there is "NO REMISSION". (of sin)
"HOW" can any man "REMIT" (take away) the sins of another man???
"Only one way" and "ONLY ONE MAN", can "take away" (remit) sin, JESUS
If "ONE SIN" can be "taken away" without Jesus dying to fulfil the law for that sin, then "ALL SIN" can be taken away "WITHOUT JESUS",
Like to buy some "ocean front property" in "TN"???
Ray Berrian
New Member
'no...I'm still forgiven. My Bible says Christ died ONCE for ALL my sins. The moment I breathe my last breath, my sin nature will be removed. I do not have to go to some heavenly detox station for the "unconfessed" sin. My justification is intact, and sins forgiven through Christ's blood.'
.
zealouswest
New Member
He could have been exempted, but I doubt that he was. Jesus says "today you will be with me in SHEOL". That is neither heaven nor hell. So the notion of a "third place" and a place of waiting is not all that foreign to the bible.
Moreover, purgatory isn't a place of time. So he could still be there or he could be in heaven at the fullness of Days - all of this in between being as a thousand years to the Lord.
No it doesn't.
So...you're saying that Christ redeeming blood will effect a change in your soul, washing you from your sin and making your perfect and rightous after death. THAT is all the doctrine of purgatory says.
But you just said that, once you die, your sin is cleansed fully from your soul. So you DO - but it's just a state of being cleansed in Christ's blood. And that's all purgation is. You just don't like the word because it sounds too "catholic"...not everything they believe is heterodox or without reason.
Or do you not have to confess your sins to be forgiven? Obstinence of heart and an unwillingness to confess are not things the soul must get rid of to be in perfect communion with God who is Perfect?
So, what did Christ mean when he said to his Apostles "As the father sent me so I send you" and then he breathed upon them and said "receive the holy spirit. Whoevers sins YOU forgive are FORGIVEN, and whoever's sins YOU retain are RETAINED"!
Notice also the only other time God breathes on man is when he created him in Genesis.
It's not apart from Christ, though. It would be through Christ and through the system he set up. If he gave us men with this authority, we can assume that he meant to do that. And if those men passed that authority on, we can assume its an importaint thing.
He could have been exempted, but I doubt that he was. Jesus says "today you will be with me in SHEOL". That is neither heaven nor hell. So the notion of a "third place" and a place of waiting is not all that foreign to the bible.
Moreover, purgatory isn't a place of time. So he could still be there or he could be in heaven at the fullness of Days - all of this in between being as a thousand years to the Lord.
</font>[/QUOTE]I want to comment on only my part.
You may have a wrong bible with "Sheol"
All the texts including Vatican text, it says "Paradeiso" which doesn't mean hell.
Apparently Good Part of Sheol(waiting place for Heaven), not the waiting place for Hell. Please check.
If the Robber went to Paradise directly, can we not go to the Paradise directly by believing in Yeshuah? This is what I want to recommend you to think about. The Salvation is not easy for men, but really easy and simple as long as we believe in what God has done already.
Otherwise, if RC doesn't believe in the complete Salvation by Faith, their situation is more miserable than the Robber.
I hope you make some deep thoughts reading
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed (has been passed already) from death unto life.
Is the Purgatory the LIFE?
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Helen you may not remember but there have been various purging of Catholics here especially when they are too eloquent in defending their faith, about 2 years ago several baptists and former anti-catholics (ie Neal4Christ a student at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and Brother Adam among several others) from this board became Catholic or started that journey and Catholics like Carson Weber and several others were kicked off the board for evangelizing the Catholic faith. Never could figure out how they were supposed to share/defend their faith without being accused of evangelizing
Then recently others have been kicked off, I thought one of the administrators recently announced a new restrictive policy/ or ban about catholics joining the Baptist Board but I may have that wrong I didn't pay to much attention to the thread.
I am neither eloquent or an consistently active poster so I guess they let me stick around.
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Thanks Jim you are a gentleman.
May God grant you a blessed and happy new year
May God grant you a blessed and happy new year
zealouswest
New Member
You are right I believe in the wording. But not in the meaning.
Where did Jesus go when he died? To heaven? Or to "abraham's bosom" which would be Sheol, to speak to the spirits "in prison?"?
But he didn't go to heaven is the main issue. And we also know that Christ preached to those who were disobedient in the days of Noah who most likely were NOT in the "good part" of sheol. But he was WITH JESUS, which is the main part we should probably be concerned with.
That paradise was not heaven, as you have agreed above.
But yes, it is possible to go directly to heaven. But most of us won't. Most of us must let go fully of sins that we, in our hearts - though justified - do not wish to let go of.
Sure. "Passing into life" is not the same thing as "you are already perfect and need nothing else."
Better read your Bible, the OT saints made "Sacrifice" and their sins were "FORGIVEN", but "NOT TAKEN AWAY".
"Forgiven" only means you don't pay the wages, but they are "STILL OWED" and must be paid by another,
and the "DEBT" is "NOT REMITTED" until "PAID" by "DEATH". (no shed blood, no remission)
"FORGIVEN DOES NOT EQUAL TAKEN AWAY"
Read the above, only "DEATH" fulfils the requirements of the law to "Take away" sins.
OT Testiment Saint didn't go to heaven when they died, but to "Abraham's Bosom", Jesus being a "Mystery" not revealed to Israel, Jews believe the soul sleeps in the Grave until Resurrected.
Until Jesus died the Gates of Heaven was closed to mankind, While "in the tomb" Jesus went and preached to the souls of all the previous dead, those that believed, he took to heaven when he ascended.
NO MAN, come to the father but by me.
"Forgiven" is best "translated" as "Payment Postponed" until later date, "NO SIN" will ever go "UNPAID", every "jot/title" the law requires will be paid by the "Death" of Jesus or the person.
How a persons dies (Saved/Lost) will be the way they remain for eternity.
Ec 11:3 and if the "tree" (person) "fall" (dies) toward the "south", (lost) or toward the "north",(saved) in the "place" (Condition, Saved/lost) where the tree falleth, there it shall be. (for eternity)
Death "SEALS" the spiritual condition of a person, and "NO MAN" on earth can "take away" sins of another person, EXCEPT JESUS
I'd suggest a study of the "LAW" and what the "LAW" requires BEFORE sin is "Taken away".
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
That paradise was not heaven, as you have agreed above.
But yes, it is possible to go directly to heaven. But most of us won't. Most of us must let go fully of sins that we, in our hearts - though justified - do not wish to let go of.
[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]At least you have explained quite well about how you are reasoning. Your reasoning is very much understandable.
Yes, Paradise is not the Heaven.
Can you not think the situation where, Jesus took the Robber with him to the Paradise and leave him there and go to the other part to proclaim the Gospel to the prisoners?
Or do you believe that the robber followed Jesus to preach the gospel to the prisoners? In such case we should imagine that everybody who were dead before Jesus followed Jesus to the prison.
Moreover when Jesus went to the prison is not known in the Bible, but what is certain is that the Robber went to Paradise together with Jesus "then Today", by believing in Him.
Do you believe that Dead people are sleeping as we read 1 Cor 11:30, 15:20, 15:51, 1 Thes 4:14?
Do you believe that Jesus will come again ? and that He will bring the people who are dead now, with Him at that time? (1 Thes 4:14)
In such case when do they have time to go to Purgatory or to be in the state of Purgatory?
As for the sanctification, we continue to be sanctified throughout our lives, but after death, Bible simply tells us that
"We know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him" (1John 3:2)You may be changed in a moment.
Do you require more to do, in order to enter the Heaven?
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have Eternal Life" (1 John 5:13)
If you believe in Son of God, you have the Eternal Life and will be raised by Jesus when He comes back again. In the meantime, if you died, you will sleep in the Paradise. Truth is very simple! Would you believe this?
So many sects get judged and lumped together. I have travelled the world and know many IFB churches and missionaries and I have never found a one that believed in easy believism. As matter of fact they all pointed out that this thinking and teaching is in error.
In reality it is not easy not because the Truth itself is difficult but because human beings are always in the habit of pursuing it in a difficult way or setting aside the Truth pursuing earthly things to satisfy their deisre.
So, there is a difference between the Truth itself and the difficulty in the pursuit.
This cause a certain split in the result, easy believers often turned out to be only a simple church-goers, not truly born-again. (Titus 1:16)
So, there is a difference between the Truth itself and the difficulty in the pursuit.
This cause a certain split in the result, easy believers often turned out to be only a simple church-goers, not truly born-again. (Titus 1:16)
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
B.A.C,
You are correct. That restriction was what I was referring to.