Are Catholics really Christians?

[BobRyan]

If at death you lose your sinful nature and if your mind and heart are 100% for Christ -- then even if you are only a 1 minute old Christian and then you die - you are "good to go"!!

Originally posted by Matt Black:

It is this 'losing the sinful nature' to which I am referring and which I call purgatory.

Even if you live to be 200 - you will still have your sinful nature there is no getting rid of it until we are brought into Christ's presence in our glorified form. We "inherit" the sinful nature from Adam - we are all members of the fallen human race. No amount of "good living" on our part removes it. It is the inner desire or propensity to sin.

It is not the same thing as "character". Character is "you" it is who you are. It can be deformed by embracing sin and it can be restored by choosing a life of obedience. Character is what "does not change" when you go to heaven. It is what it is. The New Birth resets our Character pointing us in God's direction but it does not erase the character or eliminate its defects. We must choose daily to die to self and to remain in that God-facing direction inspite of our sinful nature and inspite of our character weakness. His strength is sufficient for our weakness. THough many think their own weakness is greater than God's willingness to provide strength.

On the other hand - that weak sinful nature with its inclination to sin is removed for us by God at the moment we raised from the dead with our new heaven-built bodies. (2Cor 5:1-3). There is nothing we did to get that sinful nature and there is nothing we do to get rid of it. IT is all of God.

Since this is not quite the same thing as "Are Catholics Christians" and some others may have something to say about it as well - I am going to start it as its own subject -- 'Character vs Sinful nature'.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"I'm asking how we get from being imputed to being made real (as the Velveteen Rabbit might say!)...?"

I'm not quite following you there.

(could be your British accent.

)

Could you re-phrase the question and make it a bit clearer?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by D28guy:
Matt Black,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"But, to my mind, it stands to reason that when I get called home to heaven, there is likely to still be some 'unfinished business' on the sanctification front eg: if I were to drop down dead at my keyboard after I finished typing this(!); logic suggests, therefore, the need for some kind of purgative post-mortem event/ process to finalise and make complete that sanctification."

For the born again child of God, their positional sanctification...meaning that wich is necesarry to enter heaven when they die...was accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross.

Every sin...past, present, future, sins of omission, sins of comission, every sin...was completly atoned for and our sin debt to God was declared "paid in full".

Purgatory is a fairy tale.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you free from sin now? </font>[/QUOTE]No. We all still sin. However, the sin debt (that we could never pay anyway) has been paid in full by Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. When God looks at the born again Christian He sees Christ not our sins. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that the sin debt is paid in full - and thus I part company with some Catholic interpretations of purgatory and being a place where sins still have to be paid for - but the fact is that you and I still sin and, although God sees us as perfect and sees Christ, we are not (at least not currently) without sin in reality and not in reality conformed into the image of Christ Jesus - and somehow that has to be tackled... </font>[/QUOTE]I think what you are driving at can be nailed down by three thrological terms (prinicpals).

Justification: Happens at the moment of salvation (when one puts their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins (past, present, and future sins).

Sanctification: The process begins at salvation and continues throughout our natural lives as we are being molded into the image of Christ Jesus by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and His Word.

Glorification: Will happen when Jesus Christ returns to claim His Bride (the church made up of all born again believers from all the ages of history) and we receive our glorified bodies and dwell in His presence for eternity.

So I am fully justified in Christ today and forever. I am being sanctified continually as I grow in my walk with the Lord, submit to His authority, and mature in understanding and application of His Word. I will be glorified one day when He returns or calls me home to heaven.

 

[Matt Black]

OK, guys, I'm going to switch over to Bob's new thread on this one to avoid further derailing this one.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm asking how we get from being imputed to being made real (as the Velveteen Rabbit might say!)...? [/QB]

Separating Imputation and Being Real, has an error. Even Being Real comes from the faith.
If our lives end, there will be no need for further sanctification. Sanctification is a matter when we encounter problems in our lives.

Even if there may be any change of ourselves when we meet Him, can it be done by our efforts?
Can we do anything for the holiness after our death, since we can do nothing for it while we are alive now?
Do we get any special power if we die, to perform the righterousness and to become holy?

1 John 3:2 simply answers "we shall be like Him"

Purgatory is based on Human theory which believes Human being can do something for holiness.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
1 John 3:2 simply answers "we shall be like Him"

I don’t know, maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but 1 John 3:2…we shall be like him… is in the future first person singular “to be”. I’m not a theologian, but play one on the net, but it seems to me that John is guaranteeing that as saved Christians we will be like Him, but only after some time…we shall be like…

In my opinion, nothing in 1 John 3:2 seems to indicate anything instantaneously.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by riverm:
but it seems to me that John is guaranteeing that as saved Christians we will be like Him, but only after some time…we shall be like…

In my opinion, nothing in 1 John 3:2 seems to indicate anything instantaneously. [/QB]

YOu sound like a person who do not believe that Lord Jesus will come soon and receieve the Believers in Him.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The original question has been answered by a variety of responses. This thread has since taken several different directions. As a result, this thread is now closed.