Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[Soulman]

I believe that if a catholic hears the message of salvation and responds favorably, that yes, they can be saved. Will they live out their lives as catholics actually being baby christians left at the doorstep never being discipled?

I don't think so. Heres why: 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.Lu 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Once a person is truly saved they have met Jesus. As a result as a baby they will desire the sincere milk of the Word. In other words they will begin to seek God. True enough? The bible teaches there is one true faith or gospel.Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism. If another is taught The people teaching it are to be accursed. Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

All that being said, we have to ask: Does the catholic church preach the gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the bible? The answer is clearly no. They teach a gospel of works and an unbloody mass that is an abomination to the true gospel of Christ. Hence according to scripture those that teach it and the catholic church itself is accursed.

So what about the baby christian that is catholic and someone presented them with the true gospel of repentance?

I believe scripture teaches that God and His Holy Spirit will lead them out if the convert will seek God through His word. 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The Word of God will eventually lead a person out of the catholic church. No, it is unscriptural for them to stay in order to lead their friends out. Where would they send them? We can see that the teachings of the RCC are accursed and an abomination to God.

We can see that the God which cannot lie teaches us what to do:Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

While the RCC has big problems, I do think that they are saved. They do believe that we are saved by God's grace. You should check out the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

 

[Soulman]

While the RCC has big problems, I do think that they are saved. They do believe that we are saved by God's grace. You should check out the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

Respectfully, you should check out their catachisim. They re-sacrifice our Lord at every mass and although may say some of the right things their underlying doctrine on salvation is one completely made up of works. Oh ya! They have their problems all right!

Don't get me wrong. I love the catholics and welcome any opportunity to witness to them. But Catholicisim itself is the cesspool of hell and anyone that falls prey to it's doctrins will end up there.

Before anyone freaks out as to what I just said, take a catachisim and study it. Find out what you are defending before you ignorantly defend Satans church.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Respectfully, you should check out their catachisim. They re-sacrifice our Lord at every mass and although may say some of the right things their underlying doctrine on salvation is one completely made up of works. . Find out what you are defending before you ignorantly defend Satans church.

I have read it. Have you read the Joint Declaration?

 

[Soulman]

I have read it. Have you read the Joint Declaration?

I have studied catholic theology for many years and compared their teachings with the bible. I don't really care what men wrote to deceive us into thinking they are one of us. Read what it is that they actually teach and compare it to your bible. They are behind the ecumenical machine that is bringing the world to a one world religion. They will attempt to make their venom more palitable to christianity. Catholicisim is what I believe to be the whore of Babylon spoken of in the book of Revelation.

Do me a favor. Re-read my first post and refute it with your bible. Not your opinions.

By the way Paul, I am not angry. I am enjoying the discussion. I am just passionate.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Catholicism is a lot like Mormonism in the sense that there may be one or two people in Catholicism who are Christians, but if they're saved, it's in spite of Catholic doctrine, not because of it.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Catholicism is a lot like Mormonism in the sense that there may be one or two people in Catholicism who are Christians, but if they're saved, it's in spite of Catholic doctrine, not because of it.

I like that, although you may not necessarily agree with what I say.

What is a Christian, please ?
Is a Christian somebody who "accepted" Christ, adhere to certain doctrines, do not go to a religion, baptized with water baptism, live a life that is "turned around" from idols to the living God, and all those standards and bases upon which we stick the word "Christian" to ?

Or is a Christian somebody whom the Christ from whom the word Christian (which originally, I am told, means "of Christ") redeemed with His blood and loved before He was loved ?

Do we really know who the true Christians are, and who are not ?
I say we judge them by what we see in them, or by what we hear from them, but only the Lord knows who they are, because "known unto the Lord are all His works from the beginning".

Judas walked with Christ for three years, and was not suspected of treason against his friend until the last moment, when Jesus revealed him, because he was never one of the Lord's people.

Is there anything in the Bible that says Jesus redeemed His people as long as they become Baptists or get identified with him in this fallen time world ?

The fact is that the Bible says in Revelations 7 that God's people come from ALL nations, ALL tongues, and if we will base his people's eternal redemption on their adherence to Biblical doctrines and their "acceptance" of Christ (instead of His acceptance of them) then here we have a curious all because it cannot be "all".

So, Christ has His people, He redeemed them according to the will of His Father in Heaven, shed His blood for them, and they can be anyone and anything and anywhere in this time world from which they will be brought in to the eternal world.

Some may be, right now, Catholics.
Differentiate the individual from the religion.

 

[OldRegular]

If we believe in the Doctrine of Election then we must believe that there are true believers within the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions. I know a few Roman Catholics and have no doubt as to their salvation.

 

[Jim1999]

I concur with Old Regular. Are we talking abour Romanism or the individual believer? I personally believe that true faith is in the individual, as the gift of God, and salvation is One on one.

There are many false teachings in Baptist churches. We might ask if a Baptist is saved.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[OldRegular]

I concur with Old Regular. Are we talking abour Romanism or the individual believer? I personally believe that true faith is in the individual, as the gift of God, and salvation is One on one.

There are many false teachings in Baptist churches. We might ask if a Baptist is saved.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim

Thanks! I agree. I have always believed that God saves people one at a time!

 

[Soulman]

If we believe in the Doctrine of Election then we must believe that there are true believers within the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions. I know a few Roman Catholics and have no doubt as to their salvation.

First of all based upon the doctrine of election God saved us based on His forknowledge that we would come to Him and call upon the name of Jesus.1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I am not going to get into this whole Calvinest thing. It is battle that has been going on for the last 5 years I have been a member here. I will address the fact that the bible teaches that we have to realize we are sinners.We have to realize there is nothing we can do to pay for our sins other than to come to repentance and trust the work of Christ on the cross. His shed blood covers the sinner once and for all. Adam had a choice. Christ is the second Adam according to scripture. We are going to be as Christ is.He came to restore us to our original condition of perfection. As Adam had a choice, so do we!

That being said, the path is the gospel. Believe a different gospel than the one set in scripture and one cannot be saved. Catholicisim does not teach the gospel of the bible. Unless somebody gives a catholic the gospel or they find it in their own bible they cannot be saved. If they do get saved God will eventually draw them out.

You cannot remain a catholic and be content with it's teachings and be saved. It is that sets us free. A man cannot serve two masters(gospels).

 

[OldRegular]

First of all based upon the doctrine of election God saved us based on His forknowledge that we would come to Him and call upon the name of Jesus.1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

You are wrong about the Doctrine of Election.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Respectfully, you should check out their catachisim. They re-sacrifice our Lord at every mass and although may say some of the right things their underlying doctrine on salvation is one completely made up of works. Oh ya! They have their problems all right!

Here is the section of the Catholic Catechism on Justification, Grace and Merit.

While it is true that Catholics reject the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, it is not true that their salvation is made up completely of works. I'm not saying I agree with every aspect of these statements, but they are an accurate representation of official Catholic doctrine. I do agree there is a lot wrong with Catholic doctrine, but your accusation is an incorrect one. ** Bold added by me **

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34
....
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
...
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. 46
...
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
...
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
...
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
...
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Just a note that even the "works based grace" of sacraments that we like to accuse Catholics of is still part of God's free gift of grace to man. I don't necessarily agree with that but I think it gives context to the Catholic view of the sacraments.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I like that, although you may not necessarily agree with what I say.

What is a Christian, please ?
Is a Christian somebody who "accepted" Christ, adhere to certain doctrines, do not go to a religion, baptized with water baptism, live a life that is "turned around" from idols to the living God, and all those standards and bases upon which we stick the word "Christian" to ?

Or is a Christian somebody whom the Christ from whom the word Christian (which originally, I am told, means "of Christ") redeemed with His blood and loved before He was loved ?

Do we really know who the true Christians are, and who are not ?
I say we judge them by what we see in them, or by what we hear from them, but only the Lord knows who they are, because "known unto the Lord are all His works from the beginning".

Judas walked with Christ for three years, and was not suspected of treason against his friend until the last moment, when Jesus revealed him, because he was never one of the Lord's people.

Is there anything in the Bible that says Jesus redeemed His people as long as they become Baptists or get identified with him in this fallen time world ?

The fact is that the Bible says in Revelations 7 that God's people come from ALL nations, ALL tongues, and if we will base his people's eternal redemption on their adherence to Biblical doctrines and their "acceptance" of Christ (instead of His acceptance of them) then here we have a curious all because it cannot be "all".

So, Christ has His people, He redeemed them according to the will of His Father in Heaven, shed His blood for them, and they can be anyone and anything and anywhere in this time world from which they will be brought in to the eternal world.

Some may be, right now, Catholics.
Differentiate the individual from the religion.

But the individuals in the religion are in the religion because they believe in the religion.

Sorry, but the Catholic view of justification cannot save you, no matter how sincerely you believe in it.

You can do everything else right, but the moment you depend on a religious work or ritual to save you, you're disqualified as a Christian. The moment you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement to save you, as Catholics do, you're disqualified as a Christian.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Respectfully, you should check out their catachisim. They re-sacrifice our Lord at every mass

It is also inaccurate to call the Eucharist a re-sacrifice. They describe it as a continuation and their participation of Christ's one sacrifice.

Cathechism of the Catholic Church: Eucharist

1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"133
...
1330 The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,148 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

 

[preachinjesus]

I've always said that a man's church attendance isn't what saves him, it is what is in his heart. I believe many Catholics are saved probably just as many baptists. I grew up in a heavily Catholic community, many of my friends attended local RCC parishes. Many of them would say that while they attended an RC church they didn't necessarily believe what it taught.

I'm a pretty broad view guy when it comes to salvation. I believe that to be saved all you need to do is confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is raised and is Lord. I don't believe you need to have your doctrine secure or a truly biblical understanding of justification to be saved. Salvation is simple and beautiful.

A final note is if you believe Catholics can't be saved, then what do ou with the millions and millions who faithfully served God before the Reformation?

 

[OldRegular]

Salvation is the work of God on an individual soul. It is not the Roman Road. It is not a child saying I love Jesus. It is not a person saying I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is a supernatural transaction wherein God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, {by grace ye are saved;} And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [Ephesians 2:4-7] Having regenerated or New Birthed one of His elect God gives the gift of faith and the remaining joys of salvation will most certainly follow.

 

[Amy.G]

While it is true that Catholics reject the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, it is not true that their salvation is made up completely of works.

It doesn't have to be "completely" of works. One work is enough to be a different gospel. The gospel of Christ is grace + nothing = salvation. Any other gospel is a false gospel and cannot save.

 

[preachinjesus]

I just don't see a place in the NT where we have to come to God with our theology in place prior to salvation.

Suggesting that proper knowledge of the doctrines of God are required for salvation hedges on gnoticism and is not a biblical understanding of salvation.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I just don't see a place in the NT where we have to come to God with our theology in place prior to salvation.

Suggesting that proper knowledge of the doctrines of God are required for salvation hedges on gnoticism and is not a biblical understanding of salvation.

We're not talking about knowledge or understanding. We're talking about an outright denial of the Biblical doctrine of justification.

Frankly, I'm starting to become a little disturbed by this thread. Since when do Baptists believe that one can deny salvation by faith alone and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and be saved?