Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[Amy.G]

Frankly, I'm starting to become a little disturbed by this thread. Since when do Baptists believe that one can deny salvation by faith alone and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and be saved?

I agree. It seems that people have no problem with compromising the gospel that was once delivered.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

What is the gospel of Christ? There is only one.

 

[Gold Dragon]

It doesn't have to be "completely" of works. One work is enough to be a different gospel. The gospel of Christ is grace + nothing = salvation. Any other gospel is a false gospel and cannot save.

I was addressing Soulman's claim that it was completely about works for Catholics.

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification also can not be ignored where it appears Catholics now agree with sola gratia.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

3. The Common Understanding of Justification
...
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
...
The Good Works of the Justified
...
38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I've always said that a man's church attendance isn't what saves him, it is what is in his heart. I believe many Catholics are saved probably just as many baptists. I grew up in a heavily Catholic community, many of my friends attended local RCC parishes. Many of them would say that while they attended an RC church they didn't necessarily believe what it taught.

So, if they're so insincere as to affirm Catholic teaching every time they take the Eucharist, how do you know that they are sincere when it comes to telling you what they believe?

I'm a pretty broad view guy when it comes to salvation.

OK. Complete this verse for me: "Broad is the way that leads to _______". I'll give you a hint: the answer is found in Matthew 7:13.

I believe that to be saved all you need to do is confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is raised and is Lord. I don't believe you need to have your doctrine secure or a truly biblical understanding of justification to be saved. Salvation is simple and beautiful.

No. The Bible is very clear that there are certain core doctrines one MUST hold to in order to be saved.

A final note is if you believe Catholics can't be saved, then what do ou with the millions and millions who faithfully served God before the Reformation?

Simple: you pick up a history book and the Didache and look at what the church taught. ((And don't let Catholics fool you into thinking that the Didache is a "Catholic book".))

You're making the false assumption that the church prior to the Reformation was the same as the modern day Catholic Church and taught the same things.

Remember, the Reformation began as a defense against the political corruption and heretical doctrines that were creeping into the church, not against things that already existed in the church.

 

[OldRegular]

No. The Bible is very clear that there are certain core doctrines one MUST hold to in order to be saved.

I believe that in the interest of all concerned that you should list those cardinal doctrines that ONE MUST BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!

 

[OldRegular]

The posts on this thread show the danger of man believing that he is the author of his own salvation. Some have blithely consigned a billion or so people to the lake of fire.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I believe that in the interest of all concerned that you should list those cardinal doctrines that ONE MUST BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!

The two most relevant to this topic are salvation by faith alone, through no work, ritual or merit of the individual and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The posts on this thread show the danger of man believing that he is the author of his own salvation. Some have blithely consigned a billion or so people to the lake of fire.

No, God consigns them to the Lake of Fire.

 

[OldRegular]

I just don't see a place in the NT where we have to come to God with our theology in place prior to salvation.

Suggesting that proper knowledge of the doctrines of God are required for salvation hedges on gnoticism and is not a biblical understanding of salvation.

I agree completely. I am concerned that the Baptist Churches take in children that first of all I don't believe are accountable and second are old enough to understand what sin and salvation are. But some on this thread are saying that in order to be saved we must hold strictly to all Biblical Doctrines.

 

[Gold Dragon]

The two most relevant to this topic are salvation by faith alone, through no work, ritual or merit of the individual and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

While I agree with you that this doctrine is right and there is a lot of scripture to support this. I guess the question is where does it say in scripture that believing this doctrine is a requirement for salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

No, God consigns them to the Lake of Fire.

So you are speaking for GOD now! Then we should see very soon that list those cardinal doctrines that ONE MUST BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!

 

[OldRegular]

The fact is that the Bible says in Revelations 7 that God's people come from ALL nations, ALL tongues, and if we will base his people's eternal redemption on their adherence to Biblical doctrines and their "acceptance" of Christ (instead of His acceptance of them) then here we have a curious all because it cannot be "all".

So, Christ has His people, He redeemed them according to the will of His Father in Heaven, shed His blood for them, and they can be anyone and anything and anywhere in this time world from which they will be brought in to the eternal world.

Some may be, right now, Catholics.
Differentiate the individual from the religion.

I agree! There are some on this Forum who have questioned my salvation because I am not a dispensationalist or called me a heretic because I believe in the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Amy.G

The Scripture you quote states that the gospel of Christ: is the power of God unto salvation. It does not say that anyone else has the ability or power to save anyone. I noted in an earlier post that Salvation is a supernatural transaction between GOD and an individual.

 

[Gold Dragon]

While many folks around these parts knock ecumenicalism and I agree that there can be problems with ecumenicalism, I think ecumenicalism has played a major role in the Catholic church becoming more in line with protestant theology over the last 50 years. This still needs to trickle down from the top to the actual level of individual parishes and parishoners, but these things take a while with an organization as large as the Catholic church. They've come a long way since the 1500s and I think it is in large part from Christians putting in the hard work to be obedient to Christ's prayer in John 17 and Paul's urging in Ephesians 4 despite the animosity between groups over deeply held issues.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Jim1999]

I shall pose a question. I grew up in the Church of England. The Common Prayer Book states that "baptism rids the soul of original sin........" I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ during my Confirmation classes at age 13. If I had remained in the Anglican Church, would my salvation be in question because the Common Prayer Book says that baptism (sprinkling) washes me of original sin?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[OldRegular]

I shall pose a question. I grew up in the Church of England. The Common Prayer Book states that "baptism rids the soul of original sin........" I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ during my Confirmation classes at age 13. If I had remained in the Anglican Church, would my salvation be in question because the Common Prayer Book says that baptism (sprinkling) washes me of original sin?

Cheers,

Jim

Jim

When I was a young believer and thought that salvation was a cooperative effort between God and man I believed that those in some communions were unsaved because they held beliefs that were not what I considered Biblical. As I matured and God showed me that Salvation was entirely His work I had to give up that foolish belief.

I still believe that there is error in other communions just as I disagree with many things Southern Baptists do. But the foolish errors of man cannot undo the work of God in Salvation else I fear that many would be lost!

OldRegular

 

[Amy.G]

Amy.G

The Scripture you quote states that the gospel of Christ: is the power of God unto salvation. It does not say that anyone else has the ability or power to save anyone. I noted in an earlier post that Salvation is a supernatural transaction between GOD and an individual.

I agree.....................

 

[preachinjesus]

We're not talking about knowledge or understanding. We're talking about an outright denial of the Biblical doctrine of justification.

Sure thing, so am I.

Frankly, I'm starting to become a little disturbed by this thread. Since when do Baptists believe that one can deny salvation by faith alone and the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and be saved?

Well show me in the New Testament where salvation happens only when a person can give a point by point doctrinal outline of their understanding of justification.

Show me, seriously. It isn't there.

You don't need to know that the Baptist view of justification is the imputed nature of Christ's righteousness that provides, in a punctiliar act, the grace of God in the life of someone who has confessed and believed Jesus Christ.

To be saved, according to the New Testament, you must have faith in Jesus Christ and confess Him as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. That is it.

 

[preachinjesus]

So, if they're so insincere as to affirm Catholic teaching every time they take the Eucharist, how do you know that they are sincere when it comes to telling you what they believe?

Well since you know my friends better than, and seem happy to question their character, I'll let you judge them.

OK. Complete this verse for me: "Broad is the way that leads to _______". I'll give you a hint: the answer is found in Matthew 7:13.

By broad view I mean I believe more than Baptists are going to be saved. I believe you can be Methodist, Lutheran, non-Denom, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc and be saved.

No. The Bible is very clear that there are certain core doctrines one MUST hold to in order to be saved.

So we must be able to doctrinally qualify in order to receive God's grace?

Show me where, in the NT, someone must be able to fill out the appropriate theological questionaire for the Holy Spirit to come into their live.

Also, if I don't believe certain "core doctrines" and am saved, will I lose my salvation?

You're making the false assumption that the church prior to the Reformation was the same as the modern day Catholic Church and taught the same things.

While some aspects of Roman Catholic doctrine have undergone change through the councils (like Vatican I and II) most of their core doctrine remains pretty unchanged.

Remember, the Reformation began as a defense against the political corruption and heretical doctrines that were creeping into the church, not against things that already existed in the church.

Oh I completely disagree with this. Tetzel was pretty well established in the Roman Catholic Church. The practices of indulgences and papal infallibility were also well established.

So what do we do with the millions and millions of faithful Christians who happened to live in times before Baptists existed?

 

[donnA]

Are Catholics saved or even christians?

If a person is saved, they are a christian, if a person is a christian they are saved, they are the samething.

 

[rsr]

This forum is about "Baptist theology and Bible study."

Accordingly, this thread is being moved to a more appropriate forum.