Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[Johnv]

A Catholic, by definition, affirms Catholic doctrine, which includes salvation by works and the insufficiency of Christ's atonement.

Any Catholic here will tell you differently.

No, I never judged the salvation of any individual but your strawman is duly noted.

You're by definition making the assertion that any person who adheres to Catholic doctrine is not saved.

I agree. They will tell us that. And then they will turn right around and engage in Catholic rituals for their salvation.

That's rather disingenuous of you. If a Catholic's answer doesn't concur with your presupposition, you will just disregard their answer as being false.

Simple question, John: does Catholicism or does Catholicism not teach that the purpose of Purgatory is for the individual sinner to expiate his own sin?

You should ask a Catholic on this board that question. They're more equipped to answer that than I. But you've already noted that if they dont' answer the question as you have predetermined the answer to be, you will simply accuse them of false doctrine anyway.

And yet, you have such contempt for sound doctrine.

I have no contempt whatsoever for sound doctrine. I have contempt for those who make salvific judgements about others based on their preception of what constitutes sound doctrine. Big difference.

 

[lori4dogs]

The Catholic Christian answer to this question is in three stages which relate to the three meanings of the words "saved" and "salvation" that are in the Bible.

Catholic Christians will say that they have been saved. This is first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are saved--He died, rose from the dead, saved us from sin.

2 Cor 5:17
So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

Catholic Christians also say that they are being saved. This is the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" that we have in the bible--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin.

1 Cor 15:2
Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Catholic Christians also respond that we will be saved, that we have hope and belief that God will give us the grace to persevere; that we will respond to it; and accept Jesus gift of salvation until we pass this world. This shows the third meaning of the words "saved" and "salvation" presented in the bible--the future deliverance of believers at Jesus Second Coming.

Rom 5:9
How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So what has the class learned today?

I know...that JohnDeereFan can't think for himself?

In XC
-

 

[lori4dogs]

A Catholic, by definition, affirms Catholic doctrine, which includes salvation by works and the insufficiency of Christ's atonement.



No, I never judged the salvation of any individual but your strawman is duly noted.



I agree. They will tell us that. And then they will turn right around and engage in Catholic rituals for their salvation.

Simple question, John: does Catholicism or does Catholicism not teach that the purpose of Purgatory is for the individual sinner to expiate his own sin?



And yet, you have such contempt for sound doctrine.

Purgatory is defined as a state of being, not a place. It is the continuing process of purification of the soul after human death. It is a state of perfection--begun in baptism and faith-consummated after death, entered into only by those who are saved. In other words, if a person has not come to Christ in this life, there is not the slightest chance of salvation for them in the next.

Hoping this doesn't turn into a thread on purgatory but here is scriptural support for it:
Rev 21:27
... but nothing unclean will enter it (the City of God), nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Eph 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her (the Church) to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

We are deprived of the vision of God because of our sinfulness. But there is a divine purging fire which can heal us.

Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
Heb 12:6,10
For whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges. ... but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness.
Is 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it.
"See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Pet 1:7
The genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And then, for those of us that except the same scriptures from the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament of Jesus, the Evangelists and Paul, and of the councils of Hippo and Carthage, sure seem to affirm purgatory.

2 Mc 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I know...that JohnDeereFan can't think for himself?

In XC
-

That Agnus Dei's parents didn't teach him any manners?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Purgatory is defined as a state of being, not a place.

Irrelevant. Whether it's a place or a state of mind, its purpose is still for the sinner to expiate their own sin.

Hoping this doesn't turn into a thread on purgatory but here is scriptural support for it:
Rev 21:27
... but nothing unclean will enter it (the City of God), nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And the Bible says that we're made perfect in Christ when we're born again, not on our own after we die.

Eph 5:25-27
Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her (the Church) to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

What in the world does this have to do with Purgatory?


We are deprived of the vision of God because of our sinfulness. But there is a divine purging fire which can heal us.

Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
Heb 12:6,10
For whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges. ... but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness.
Is 6:5-7
Then I (Isaiah) said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!" Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with it.
"See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Pet 1:7
The genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And then, for those of us that except the same scriptures from the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament of Jesus, the Evangelists and Paul, and of the councils of Hippo and Carthage, sure seem to affirm purgatory.

Not one of these has anything to do with Purgatory.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Someone brought up the Joint Declaration on the doctrine of justification between the papacy and the Lutheran World Federation.

I have not read the whole statement yet. But I did want to ask as I look at it, where did the papacy change their view of justification?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Any Catholic here will tell you differently.

They may say differently, but it is what they do.

You're by definition making the assertion that any person who adheres to Catholic doctrine is not saved.

Yes, I am proclaiming the Biblical message that there is no other name than Christ by which men may be saved, nor is there any other way than the way God has decreed by which men may be saved.

That's rather disingenuous of you. If a Catholic's answer doesn't concur with your presupposition, you will just disregard their answer as being false.

And this is another strawman on your part. First, you have no way of knowing how I would respond to a Catholic, since I haven't responded to any Catholics.

Second, it's a logical fallicy called "poisoning the well". By saying that I will automatically disregard any Catholic answer as "false" that does not "concur with my alleged presuppositions", any Catholic person can make a statement that is demonstrably false and, in your mind, I can't refute it because you've already declared that I wouldn't be refuting it because it's demonstrably false, but because it doesn't concur with my alleged preconceived notions.

You should ask a Catholic on this board that question. They're more equipped to answer that than I.

But you're the one who made the argument. Therefore, you should be prepared to defend your own argument.

But you've already noted that if they dont' answer the question as you have predetermined the answer to be, you will simply accuse them of false doctrine anyway.

No, actually, I never noted anything like that. That's based on a false accusation you made against me, not on anything I said.

I have no contempt whatsoever for sound doctrine.

So, "doctrine shmoctrine" isn't a phrase meant to demean the idea that sound doctrine is important?

I have contempt for those who make salvific judgements about others based on their preception of what constitutes sound doctrine. Big difference.

John, [edited for questioning salvation]

 

[lori4dogs]

'Irrelevant. Whether it's a place or a state of mind, its purpose is still for the sinner to expiate their own sin.'

Where do you get that from? Where do you find the purpose of purgatory being for a 'sinner to expiate their own sins.' Isn't it God that handles that?

And as far as my scriptural references, it is you who say they are not support for this teaching, you look at them with Baptist eyes.

 

[lori4dogs]

'Yes, I am proclaiming the Biblical message that there is no other name than Christ by which men may be saved, nor is there any other way than the way God has decreed by which men may be saved.'

Wow, that is the Catholic position.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Where do you get that from. Where do you find the purpose of purgatory being for a 'sinner to expiate their own sins.' Isn't it God that handles that?

Not according to the Council of Trent (Session 6, Canon 30) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph 1475).

And as far as my scriptural references, it is you who say they are not support for this teaching, you look at them with Baptist eyes.

No, I look at them with the eyes of someone who has studied the scriptures for more than twenty years and who understands sound hermeneutic principles.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

'Yes, I am proclaiming the Biblical message that there is no other name than Christ by which men may be saved, nor is there any other way than the way God has decreed by which men may be saved.'

Wow, that is the Catholic position.

Really? So then, the Catholic position is to deny that one must go to Purgatory to expiate their own sins?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

'Yes, I am proclaiming the Biblical message that there is no other name than Christ by which men may be saved, nor is there any other way than the way God has decreed by which men may be saved.'

Wow, that is the Catholic position.

That is not what most of us are hearing from the Roman church.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

That is not what most of us are hearing from the Roman church.

Right. How can Catholics say ex ecclesia nulla salas, and then turn around and tell us that only Christ saves?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Right. How can Catholics say ex ecclesia nulla salas, and then turn around and tell us that only Christ saves?

Exactly. We can well ask lori that if her statement is correct, which we know better, then there is no need for the Roman church for salvation.

 

[Darron Steele]

Hi JohnDeereFan: Lori4dogs is telling you what Catholicism does and does not teach based upon official Catholic documents.

Let me ask you two questions:
1) do you even care what Catholicism really teaches and does not teach, and
2) do you really care what the individual Catholic believes?

This might help clarify for Lori and all of us whether it is worth Lori making the effort.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Really? So then, the Catholic position is to deny that one must go to Purgatory to expiate their own sins?

Right. Lori4dogs is claiming it to be a form of Theosis.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hi JohnDeereFan: Lori4dogs is telling you what Catholicism does and does not teach based upon official Catholic documents.

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church an official Catholic document? Do you believe that the Council of Trent is an authoritative and accurate representation of what Catholic doctrines?

Let me ask you two questions:
1) do you even care what Catholicism really teaches and does not teach, and
2) do you really care what the individual Catholic believes?

For the purposes of this discussion, yes.

 

[Darron Steele]

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church an official Catholic document?

Duh.

Do you believe that the Council of Trent is an authoritative and accurate
representation of what Catholic doctrines?

In times past, as in c. 1546, yes. Now? Generally no.

I tend to trust newer documents over older. Rome is never going to admit to being wrong, so they are never going to disclaim older stuff; they will reinterpret it instead. If I want to know about Catholicism NOW -- not to fuel grudges about things that happened centuries ago -- I read current stuff.

Let me ask you two questions:
1) do you even care what Catholicism really teaches and does not teach, and
2) do you really care what the individual Catholic believes?

For the purposes of this discussion, yes.

Strange answer. You either do or do not care.

It looks like in general, you do not care.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Duh.

That isn't an answer.

"In times past, yes. Now? Generally no.

That's interesting, because Catholics believe that the Catholic Church never changes its doctrines.

I tend to trust newer documents over older.

What makes new truth more true than old truth?

Still, if I want to know about Catholicism NOW -- not to fuel grudges about things that happened centuries ago -- I read current stuff.

Again, I find this ironic, since the religion you're defending bases their doctrines on documents and pronouncements that go hundreds of years, or even thousands.