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Are Catholics saved or even christians?

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JohnDeereFan

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If you keep studying you find it is God that does the expiating.

Then why do both the CCC and the Council of Trent say that it's the sinner who must expiate his own sins?

First let’s make something really clear. Anyone who is saved, is saved because of Christ’s redeeming work on the cross. Period. Without that act of love, it wouldn’t matter what we did; we could not be saved. That is Catholic teaching pure and simple.

So then, again, what do you do with the idea of ex ecclesia nulla salas and the idea that sinners must expiate their own sins in Purgatory?

Now what about purgatory? Anyone who is in purgatory is already saved.

Then what is the purpose of Purgatory? The Catholic Church says it's for sinners to expiate their sins. You say it's something else. What is it?

Everyone should be grateful for purgatory because while some of us may try to do God’s will perfectly, we often fail, and unless we are perfect, we cannot be there.

But the Bible says that Christ has already perfected forever those whom He has sanctified.

Why isn't Christ's perfection good enough?

True love is demonstrated by giving of ourselves. So when we do good works out of love, in a mysterious way they are joined to Christ’s work on the cross

JACKPOT! Christ's work on the cross + your good works.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
This is a diversion from the OP.

Let's get to the doctrine of justification shall we?

Ok what the Catholic Church says:

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Ok what the Catholic Church says:

What is your source?

I am using this:

Canon 9. If anyone shall say that by faith alone the sinner is justified, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification, and that it is in no way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will: let him be anathema.

Canon 11. If anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity, which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and remains in them, or even that the grace by which we are justified is only the favor of God: let him be anathema.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
As I mentioned in a past post, you might want to read Mark 2:4-5
Notice whose faith Jesus saw that prompted him to cure the paralytic. Was it the paralytic's, the four who carried him to Jesus, those who opened the roof, or all of the above? Was it enough to just believe? Well, yes and no. Because they believed, they did something. They did a good work for their friend by bringing him to Jesus. His cure was the result.

That is why we pray for those in purgatory. In some mysteriuos way, our sacrifices and prayers help those who are there. But it is Jesus who heals. So purgatory is not so much a place as a process whereby all that is not love is purged from the soul. What remains is a saint, which is a holy one.
__________________
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
How sad that very few on this board, and anywhere else, can differentiate between the eternality of the salvation which was authored by Christ alone, and which respects no man's religion, theology, creed, or lack of these things, and a redemption based upon the will of God and of the richness of His mercy, and a salvation from dead works, false doctrines, and such like which is a result of the elect child of God's being born in a time world corrupted by Adam's sin.

The salvation of the elect child of God, born a sinner, and unregenerate by virtue of his being of the flesh of Adam, was undertaken by the Messiah without respect for the sinner's timely theology, creed, religion, catechism, statement of faith and confessions, or lack of all these.

This salvation was decreed in eternity past, and all who are beneficiaries of it were put IN CHRIST, accepted by God IN THE BELOVED, prior to and independent of ANYTHING except God's will for that individual, and His grace and mercy.

This is why Christ is the Messiah awaited by the true Israel, Zion if you will, for in His due time He will gather all under the Father, and this He did at Calvary, when He shed His blood, which covered and atoned for all the sins of all His people regardless of where they were in the chronology of salvation.

The deliverance from false doctrines of the child of God has no bearing at all to his eternal standing before God, because His eternal standing was secured by and secured in Christ ALONE, and not by his knowledge and adherence to Biblically sound doctrine.

Who may be bold enough to say that when Christ redeemed His people, He put preconditions on His redemption of them based on their religion ? Where in Scripture does it say that Christ redeemed anyone on the basis of their adherence to certain doctrines ?

These doctrines come AFTER redemption and after regeneration, and is designed to make the redeemed child of God aware of the errors of his ways that he may be able to repent and turn to the One who already redeemed him, that doing so He may be honored in the midst of His people in this time world, yet not all His people will be afforded the blessedness of knowing Him totally in this time world for not all His people can be reached and taught by those whom He calls into the ministry for the edifying and maturing of His saints whom He called into a church.

Good post!
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
The catachism of the Catholic Church. 1989 (section number)

Cool.

The statement is unblibcal and a perverted Gospel.

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Conversion by the Holy Spirit does not effect justification. Justification is a matter of righteousness which is imputed to the sinner.

"38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

At least they are honest, blending and bluring and erasing the line between justification and sanctification. These are they who go about seeking to establish their own righteousness and do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

These are truly the sons and daughters of the pharisees.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
lori4dogs said:
That is why we pray for those in purgatory. In some mysteriuos way, our sacrifices and prayers help those who are there. But it is Jesus who heals.

But people in Purgatory do not need to be healed. They need to be saved and their sins expiated.

So purgatory is not so much a place as a process whereby all that is not love is purged from the soul. What remains is a saint, which is a holy one.

Then why does the Bible say that all born again believers are already saints?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Cool.

The statement is unblibcal and a perverted Gospel.



Conversion by the Holy Spirit does not effect justification. Justification is a matter of righteousness which is imputed to the sinner.



At least they are honest, blending and bluring and erasing the line between justification and sanctification. These are they who go about seeking to establish their own righteousness and do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

These are truly the sons and daughters of the pharisees.

What do you mean imputed? See I think its this that is the heart of the issue with Justification. Typical Protestant hypothesis. Declared righteous. Typical Catholic. Made righteous. However, Salvation begins before both definitions with faith.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
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What do you mean imputed? See I think its this that is the heart of the issue with Justification. Typical Protestant hypothesis. Declared righteous. Typical Catholic. Made righteous. However, Salvation begins before both definitions with faith.

And this brings up another serious difference between the Catholic understanding of justification and the Biblical doctrine of justification:

Catholics believe in infused righteousness, while the Bible very clearly teaches imputed righteousness.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
'They need to be saved and their sins expiated.' Show me in the Catechism where it says that a person gets saved in purgatory. This is another mis-conception of protestants.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
'They need to be saved and their sins expiated.' Show me in the Catechism where it says that a person gets saved in purgatory. This is another mis-conception of protestants.

I've already shown you in both the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and from the Council of Trent.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
What do you mean imputed? See I think its this that is the heart of the issue with Justification. Typical Protestant hypothesis. Declared righteous. Typical Catholic. Made righteous. However, Salvation begins before both definitions with faith.

Your right, I think, that imputation being at the heart of the difference. As John stated, justification to a Roman Catholic is a process where righteousness is infused.

But what does the Bible say?

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Rom 3:21-22

What is seen here?

1. The righteousness of God without the law, or, without the works of the law, or, without man.

2. The Scriptures give witness to THIS righteousness, that is, God's righteousness.

3. This righteousness of God is by faith.

4. It is unto all and UPON all them that believe, Jew or Gentile.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
'They need to be saved and their sins expiated.' Show me in the Catechism where it says that a person gets saved in purgatory. This is another mis-conception of protestants.

Did you? Show me again where it says a person gets saved in purgatory. The Catholic teaching is that purgatory is ONLY for those who are saved.

You really don't understand the meaning of purgatory or the Catholic teaching on it.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
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lori4dogs said:
You really don't understand the meaning of purgatory or the Catholic teaching on it.

I've shown you from two different Catholic documents what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. So far, you haven't been able to refute them.

Just repeating "you don't know what you're talking about" over and over is not the same as refuting something.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Here is something that Catholics and protestants do agree on. We agree that the blood of Our Redeemer is the true purgatory of souls; for in it are cleansed all the souls in the world
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Here is something that Catholics and protestants do agree on. We agree that the blood of Our Redeemer is the true purgatory of souls; for in it are cleansed all the souls in the world

No, I disagree. That is the most disgusting and God-dishonoring description of the blood of Christ I think I have ever read.
 
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