Are Christians able to NOT sin?

[preacher4truth]

I'd say that not one person in this thread is looking for an excuse to sin, which is the accusation here. Such accusations are slanderous in themselves, and are therefore sin. 2 Timothy 3:3, "gossip" διάβολος (diablos) is a "traducer" or someone who is speaking falsely against another. It is speaking of the human counterpart doing this, not satan in its context.

In other words, doing this is a sin. I guess the one doing it has "chosen" to do so.

- Peace

 

[percho]

we have our sinful nature until God calls us home. We are saved, we are being saved and we will ultimately be saved. Sinless perfection in this lifetime is not only a dream, it is a nightmare.

Cheers,

Jim

How can you be saved if you are not ultimately saved?

We need to reed backward more often.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. There is that word be again. Little ain't it?
that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Bill Clinton isn't the only one that cannot understand what is, is.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

Everyone reading this IS flesh.

Everyone reading this is both corruptible and mortal.

You may be, begotten of God by the Holy Spirit of God but you are not born again, for you are still flesh.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Jesus Christ was both resurrected from Hades and resurrected no more to return to corruption. Compare what is said of him, Jesus and his father David in Acts 2 and Acts 13.

I vote no. 2 because

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 Cor 15:46
Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Spoken of a once living soul who after the resurrection is a spirit eternal soul.

 

[percho]

Jim

Based on my own experience I agree with your statement. However, what does Jesus Christ mean when He says the following:

Matthew 5:48, KJV
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It means the exact same thing he told the rich young ruler. To enter he kingdom of God you have to be as perfect as God himself.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Why do you think the disciples: When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

You can have no more to do with being born of the spirit than you had to do with being born of the flesh.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Repent of your sins, strive to do this, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Repent of your sins and pray to be a sheep.

 

[12strings]

There is only two possibilities. One you are calling things sin that are not sin or you are not a Christian as no Christian practices sin yet you say you sin every moment.

1. There is at least a third possibility: That it is the "practice" of a Christian to Pursue and practice Righteousness, while recognizing that all of his growth and effort in godliness will be tainted by his remaining indwelling sin. His "direction" and "walk" is one of love for God and battle against sin, but he rightly recognizes that even his best intentions are still tainted by remaining sin.

2. The continued ability of believers to sin is found throughout scriptures, and is not negated by the warnings of apostasy or false profession, but must be held in tension with it.

Galatians 5:17 - For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (speaking to believers, as is verse 9, and the rest of the book).

Matt. 6 - (we are taught to pray daily, "forgive us our sins")

David persisted in hiding and escalating his sin with Bathsheba for at least several weeks.

Job, after protesting his righteousness for most of the book; after being addressed by a Holy God, confesses: "Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile." (Job 40:3-4).

Romans 7, Paul speaks in the FIRST PERSON, & THE PRESENT TENSE, AS A BELIEVER: 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate....


3. It is your view that puts a burden on people that they cannot bear, because it tells them that if their testimony is one of current struggle with sin, like that of Paul, or if they seek to obey 1 John 1:8 and not claim to be without sin, they must not be saved.

4. Also, it is your view that, ironically enough, can motivate one to make excuses for sin, because it allows one to maintain their innocence if they do not remember and know for certain their conscious choice to sin. There is no room for self-examination to say, "have I in fact sinned? Have I missed something?" If you don't remember making the conscious choice to sin, you can maintain innocence.

5. Acknowledging indwelling sin that is always affecting our thoughts and decisions does not lead to defeat, but frees us to pursue righteousness in the grace of God, rather than under fear of punishment. We are no longer those who seek to establish our own righteousness, but submit to the righteousness of Christ. (Rom. 10:3)

Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

6. You cannot point to a Biblical or extrabiblical beleiver who has lived the life you say we should be able to live. The Thief on the cross does not prove the issue one way or the other, since the text SIMPLY DOES NOT TELL us what he did or said after his belief. Any speculation is just that.

***It is for these reasons why I believe your view to be mistaken, and why I am more than comfortable explaining these truths to anyone in my church who may be struggling with a certain sin; at which time I may need to warn then that continuing in such sins without repentance will give strong evidence that they are not a believer, but I cannot not tell them they are not, since I don't know. I believe this is a more biblical approach than telling someone who is currently battling lust, anger, a critical spirit, selfish decisions, gluttony or procrastination that they are not a christian and need to get saved.

***If you feel that I am not understanding your position, I would be glad to hear your recommendations of some Bible teachers who you feel explain it well.

 

[percho]

1. There is at least a third possibility: That it is the "practice" of a Christian to Pursue and practice Righteousness, while recognizing that all of his growth and effort in godliness will be tainted by his remaining indwelling sin. His "direction" and "walk" is one of love for God and battle against sin, but he rightly recognizes that even his best intentions are still tainted by remaining sin.

2. The continued ability of believers to sin is found throughout scriptures, and is not negated by the warnings of apostasy or false profession, but must be held in tension with it.

Galatians 5:17 - For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (speaking to believers, as is verse 9, and the rest of the book).

Matt. 6 - (we are taught to pray daily, "forgive us our sins")

David persisted in hiding and escalating his sin with Bathsheba for at least several weeks.

Job, after protesting his righteousness for most of the book; after being addressed by a Holy God, confesses: "Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile." (Job 40:3-4).

Romans 7, Paul speaks in the FIRST PERSON, & THE PRESENT TENSE, AS A BELIEVER: 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate....


3. It is your view that puts a burden on people that they cannot bear, because it tells them that if their testimony is one of current struggle with sin, like that of Paul, or if they seek to obey 1 John 1:8 and not claim to be without sin, they must not be saved.

4. Also, it is your view that, ironically enough, can motivate one to make excuses for sin, because it allows one to maintain their innocence if they do not remember and know for certain their conscious choice to sin. There is no room for self-examination to say, "have I in fact sinned? Have I missed something?" If you don't remember making the conscious choice to sin, you can maintain innocence.

5. Acknowledging indwelling sin that is always affecting our thoughts and decisions does not lead to defeat, but frees us to pursue righteousness in the grace of God, rather than under fear of punishment. We are no longer those who seek to establish our own righteousness, but submit to the righteousness of Christ. (Rom. 10:3)

Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

6. You cannot point to a Biblical or extrabiblical beleiver who has lived the life you say we should be able to live. The Thief on the cross does not prove the issue one way or the other, since the text SIMPLY DOES NOT TELL us what he did or said after his belief. Any speculation is just that.

***It is for these reasons why I believe your view to be mistaken, and why I am more than comfortable explaining these truths to anyone in my church who may be struggling with a certain sin; at which time I may need to warn then that continuing in such sins without repentance will give strong evidence that they are not a believer, but I cannot not tell them they are not, since I don't know. I believe this is a more biblical approach than telling someone who is currently battling lust, anger, a critical spirit, selfish decisions, gluttony or procrastination that they are not a christian and need to get saved.

***If you feel that I am not understanding your position, I would be glad to hear your recommendations of some Bible teachers who you feel explain it well.

Very good post.

Paul O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

God will deliver him: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

When are we clothed with our house from heaven?
If so be that being clothed (with our house from heaven) we shall not be found naked. For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality.

But after he is is clothed with that house from heaven he will then totally serve the law of God.
Heb 8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[freeatlast]

1. There is at least a third possibility: That it is the "practice" of a Christian to Pursue and practice Righteousness, while recognizing that all of his growth and effort in godliness will be tainted by his remaining indwelling sin. His "direction" and "walk" is one of love for God and battle against sin, but he rightly recognizes that even his best intentions are still tainted by remaining sin.

2. The continued ability of believers to sin is found throughout scriptures, and is not negated by the warnings of apostasy or false profession, but must be held in tension with it.

Galatians 5:17 - For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

1 John 1:8 - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (speaking to believers, as is verse 9, and the rest of the book).

Matt. 6 - (we are taught to pray daily, "forgive us our sins")

David persisted in hiding and escalating his sin with Bathsheba for at least several weeks.

Job, after protesting his righteousness for most of the book; after being addressed by a Holy God, confesses: "Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile." (Job 40:3-4).

Romans 7, Paul speaks in the FIRST PERSON, & THE PRESENT TENSE, AS A BELIEVER: 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate....


3. It is your view that puts a burden on people that they cannot bear, because it tells them that if their testimony is one of current struggle with sin, like that of Paul, or if they seek to obey 1 John 1:8 and not claim to be without sin, they must not be saved.

4. Also, it is your view that, ironically enough, can motivate one to make excuses for sin, because it allows one to maintain their innocence if they do not remember and know for certain their conscious choice to sin. There is no room for self-examination to say, "have I in fact sinned? Have I missed something?" If you don't remember making the conscious choice to sin, you can maintain innocence.

5. Acknowledging indwelling sin that is always affecting our thoughts and decisions does not lead to defeat, but frees us to pursue righteousness in the grace of God, rather than under fear of punishment. We are no longer those who seek to establish our own righteousness, but submit to the righteousness of Christ. (Rom. 10:3)

Galatians 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified1 by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

6. You cannot point to a Biblical or extrabiblical beleiver who has lived the life you say we should be able to live. The Thief on the cross does not prove the issue one way or the other, since the text SIMPLY DOES NOT TELL us what he did or said after his belief. Any speculation is just that.

***It is for these reasons why I believe your view to be mistaken, and why I am more than comfortable explaining these truths to anyone in my church who may be struggling with a certain sin; at which time I may need to warn then that continuing in such sins without repentance will give strong evidence that they are not a believer, but I cannot not tell them they are not, since I don't know. I believe this is a more biblical approach than telling someone who is currently battling lust, anger, a critical spirit, selfish decisions, gluttony or procrastination that they are not a christian and need to get saved.

***If you feel that I am not understanding your position, I would be glad to hear your recommendations of some Bible teachers who you feel explain it well.

You are twisting scriptures to justify sinning. Gal 5:17 is not a believer. It ia a contrast between a believer and someone seeking to live by law.

I john 1:8 is speaking about the lost. If we say we have no sin In other words have never sinned at all ever. That is a lost person and is dealing with the false teachings oif the Gnostics.

In matt 6 it does not teach we have daily sins. It asks for daily bread and seeks forgiveness as we forgive others.

Job is called a perfect man by God. While Job admitted he had sin it was not an ever moment sin as you claim to have.

David was not in the practice of sinning as the psalms make that clear.

Romans 7 is not about a saved person. Paul is dealing with those who know the law, verse 1 and trying to get them to come all the way by pointing out their battle while being in the flesh.

Gal 2:16 is talking about justification, not living a godly life after salvation.

All that you have mentioned has nothing to do with what you are trying to propagate. No person has to sin. We are given an iron clad promise we will not be tempted above what we can handle and even with the temptations we have he provides a way of escape.

Any suggestion that a Christian sins every moment is total corruption of what the bible says and teaches for a believer. It is false doctrine in the worst of ways.
No believer can practice sin as you are trying to proclaim.
1 John 3:9

 

[agedman]

Any suggestion that a Christian sins every moment is total corruption of what the bible says and teaches for a believer. It is false doctrine in the worst of ways.
No believer can practice sin as you are trying to proclaim.
1 John 3:9

FINALLY! We see the word "practice."

12strings posted that you used that word, but as I showed in another thread you had stopped using it.

Because you used the word "practice" then you certainly must also admit that a believer can, will and even to some degree commit sin and maybe even repeat the same sin. We all acknowledge that the believer will be driven to repent and seek Christ's forgiveness and cleansing.

Therefore, the question remains.

To what extent do you mean "practice" to be applied to a person?

I suppose the choices might run from committing a single offense before God repeatedly to committing multiple offenses over the lifetime.

As a guide to your answer, I would direct you to two examples of the Apostles sinning.

First Paul:

Paul states in 2 Corinthians, "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Paul clearly shows that the "messenger of Satan" was given to keep him from self glory. Because it was a "messenger of Satan" that removes the possibility that it was disfigurement or marred eyesight as I have heard some preach.

The "messenger of Satan" is a most likely some temptation of the flesh or psyche, and, because it is reoccurring, this moves the "thorn in the flesh" to the level of an addiction rather than affliction of body and/or mind.


Second Peter:

In Galatians 2 Paul rebukes Peter before the whole assembly.
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Having demonstrated that the Apostle's sinned both in repetition (Paul) and by self aware determination (Peter) I wait for your "proof" that either these men were not believers.

Lest you make an attempt, do not suppose Paul's problem was temptation level only. Paul knew the difference of finding the way of escape in a time of temptation, and the problem he sought the Lord three times about.

 

[MB]

You are twisting scriptures to justify sinning. Gal 5:17 is not a believer. It ia a contrast between a believer and someone seeking to live by law.

I john 1:8 is speaking about the lost. If we say we have no sin In other words have never sinned at all ever. That is a lost person and is dealing with the false teachings oif the Gnostics.

In matt 6 it does not teach we have daily sins. It asks for daily bread and seeks forgiveness as we forgive others.

Job is called a perfect man by God. While Job admitted he had sin it was not an ever moment sin as you claim to have.

David was not in the practice of sinning as the psalms make that clear.

Romans 7 is not about a saved person. Paul is dealing with those who know the law, verse 1 and trying to get them to come all the way by pointing out their battle while being in the flesh.

Gal 2:16 is talking about justification, not living a godly life after salvation.

All that you have mentioned has nothing to do with what you are trying to propagate. No person has to sin. We are given an iron clad promise we will not be tempted above what we can handle and even with the temptations we have he provides a way of escape.

Any suggestion that a Christian sins every moment is total corruption of what the bible says and teaches for a believer. It is false doctrine in the worst of ways.
No believer can practice sin as you are trying to proclaim.
1 John 3:9

The belief that we can be perfect would cause me to be personally critical of everyone else that I considered not to be. People who do this are called hypocrites. They are dishonest about them selves because they consider them selves better in there perfection. These are easily spotted in every church, because there the ones looking down there noses at everyone else.

There is one way to settle this. Show us the scripture that demands absolute perfection for Salvation to be genuine.

I don't believe you can.
MB

 

[freeatlast]

The belief that we can be perfect would cause me to be personally critical of everyone else that I considered not to be. People who do this are called hypocrites. They are dishonest about them selves because they consider them selves better in there perfection. These are easily spotted in every church, because there the ones looking down there noses at everyone else.

There is one way to settle this. Show us the scripture that demands absolute perfection for Salvation to be genuine.

I don't believe you can.
MB

There is no such thing taught in the bible nor has it been suggested.

 

[JesusFan]

First sinless perfection is your words not mine. Second I believe some have lived their Christian life with no sin. The thief on the cross for one, but you reject it because it gives you an excuse to sin instead of stopping your sin. No one has to sin. All sin is a choice and God will not allow us to be tempted above what we can endure.

Apostles paul and John commited sin AFTER coming to salvation in Christ...

Are you claiming that you and I can attain something they could not?

 

[MB]

There is no such thing taught in the bible nor has it been suggested.

You wrote;

Yes I do die daily, but that does not mean we have to sin daily.

Convince me you have lived just one concious day with out sin?
MB

 

[freeatlast]

Apostles paul and John commited sin AFTER coming to salvation in Christ...

Are you claiming that you and I can attain something they could not?

I am not sure what sin you are pointing to in Paul. As for Peter it is not that he could not, but that he did not. However even in what we know of we do not see any sort of daily pattern of sinning even in brother Peter.
So no one has to sin. All sin is a choice.

 

[JesusFan]

I am not sure what sin you are pointing to in Paul. As for Peter it is not that he could not, but that he did not. However even in what we know of we do not see any sort of daily pattern of sinning even in brother Peter.
So no one has to sin. All sin is a choice.

other than jesus, can you quote ANYONE else who was able to "not will" to ever sin?

 

[JesusFan]

You wrote;


Convince me you have lived just one concious day with out sin?
MB

The thing that would always get me would be that the Bible commands us to take captive for Christ EVERY idle thought...

God knows our thoughts...

Has anyone here gone whole life with a "perfect" thought life, always focused on God and doing His Will?

 

[percho]

I will agree with free about one thing. All sin is a choice.

And as long as we exist as flesh and bleed when cut we will choose to sin, daily.

There will not be anything in the kingdom of God that is imperfect nor subject to corruption. Salvation requires perfection.

Jesus the Christ, the only begotten son of God (Do we want to go there again?)
was resurrected from the dead (whatever that means) no more to return to corruption Acts 13:34 Jesus the Christ, And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9 (This was said of him because he was raised from the dead.)

Salvation???

It was a man child that was begotten of God.
It was a sinless man child that died for our sins.
It was a man child that God the Father resurrected from the dead and said,
"Thou are my Son this day have I begotten thee."
He was the son of David and he was/is the Son of God.

Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Everybody has to be Christ's to be/and be in Abraham's bosom in order to inherit.

NO?

 

[agedman]

Freeatlast,

You have posted repeatedly that the thief was sinless until death.

Why do you think the thief was sinless until death?

Is this your opinion, or is there a scripture that you are basing the thief being sinless upon?

 

[JesusFan]

Freeatlast,

You have posted repeatedly that the thief was sinless until death.

Why do you think the thief was sinless until death?

Is this your opinion, or is there a scripture that you are basing the thief being sinless upon?

the Bible is silent on the thief, other then the truth that Jesus said that he would joining him in paradise!

 

[rstrats]

JesusFan,

re: "the Bible is silent on the thief, other then the truth that Jesus said that he would joining him in paradise!"
　
So you’re suggesting that there were more than two thiefs crucified along with the Messiah?

 

[freeatlast]

Freeatlast,

You have posted repeatedly that the thief was sinless until death.

Why do you think the thief was sinless until death?

Is this your opinion, or is there a scripture that you are basing the thief being sinless upon?

No it is an opinion. However I see no reason to believe other wise unless one is biased against the truth.

 

[freeatlast]

You wrote;


Convince me you have lived just one concious day with out sin?
MB

Why would I want to even try? Who are you?