Are Coulottes "Spiritual"?

[Dina]

New International Version (NIV)
22 She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
22She makes for herself coverlets, cushions, and rugs of tapestry. Her clothing is of linen, pure and fine, and of purple [such as that of which the clothing of the priests and the hallowed cloths of the temple were made].

King James Version (KJV)
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

English Standard Version (ESV)
22She makes bed coverings for herself; her clothing is fine linen and purple.

New King James Version (NKJV)
22She makes tapestry for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.


I think from this it is pretty plain that they HER clothes, that she WEARS.

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Dina:
I think from this it is pretty plain that they HER clothes, that she WEARS.

no, it's not. of all these translations, only the niv supports your position. i find the niv, and all modern english translations i've looked at, to be unreliable. so an unusual reading in the niv carries no weight with me at all.

 

[Dina]

Originally posted by timothy 1969:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dina:
I think from this it is pretty plain that they HER clothes, that she WEARS.

no, it's not. of all these translations, only the niv supports your position. i find the niv, and all modern english translations i've looked at, to be unreliable. so an unusual reading in the niv carries no weight with me at all. </font>[/QUOTE]King James Version (KJV)
Proverbs 31
10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.


So when it says her husband, it doesn't really mean HER husband? Or her children are not really HER children?

Her clothing is silk and purple.

She makes fine linen to sell. If she were doing the same with the silk and purple why not move that verse 24? Why the need then in verse 24 to specify that she makes it to SELL, if that were the case in verse 22, why does it not specify that they are to be sold? This is a very clear, descriptive passage on what she does. Why the ambiguity on just that verse?

 

[Headcoveredlady]

The verses in the NEW Testament are a direct command that women not wear these things.

 

[dianetavegia]

Timothy1969, ALL the translations support it being HER clothes! We can't play games with scripture to fit our own thoughts....

Diane

 

[dianetavegia]

Proverbs 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.


And this woman wore those beautiful clothes with an air of humilty and fear of the Lord. Her INNER beauty outshone her outward array.

Diane

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Getting back to the original question, I view coulottes as a viable attempt to dress modestly for places and times that a dress or skirt would not be the best of choices. Climbing a ladder to paint the house comes to mind as a good example. Mind you we are discussing a Column 3 Truth. The clear Biblical principle (Column 1, ok 1.6) is that Christian ladies are to dress modestly. The logical conclusion (Column 2), drawn by many from that Column 1 Truth, is that CLs should wear "non-revealing" attire. Now, we get to informed/uninformed opinion (Column 3). This is the matter of how do you apply Truths from Columns 1 and 2. Here, is where the question of coulottes should IMHO be placed YMMV. Can they be (at least in these United States) considered modest apparel?

IMHO, they are appropriate for informal occasions (in the US Naval Services they would be termed utilities). In other words, I would consider them appropriate for Saturday AM Awanas and Sat PM Church work party, not to mention the Sat night teen hay ride. They, IMO, would not be appropriate for either of the Sunday services or the Mid-week service. But if push came to shove and a lady was Providentially hindered from changing out of her coulottes and into a skirt or dress, I'd rather she came to services on time than come late or stay home. God knows the heart attitude.

 

[Walls]

Originally posted by Thankful:
Hi Walls. We have missed you. Glad to see you back.

Thanks, it has been along time that we have been without 'puter. I've missed you all.

Sorry off topic, but I didn't want to be rude and not respond.

 

[dianetavegia]

Squire, I wear size 6. I contend that I would look less alluring in jeans than in culottes. The AWANA games include passing batons through your legs. Girls and boys, men and women participate together. My jeans cover me very well.

PLUS our pastor wears jeans on Wednesday nights for prayer meeting. It's a regional thing I think, don't you?

Diane

 

[Gina B]

"let it not be the putting on of apparel"

It doesn't say of fine apparel, or of culotte apparel, or of dress apparel. It says let it not be the putting on of apparel.
Quite literally is kinda says apparel itself is wrong. LOL
Gina

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Something I noticed about this discussion and the feminist one is that most of the pants wearing ladies also support AND teach mutual submission.

I did not say all of the ladies, but most. So, for me it confirms that what is in your heart does come out on your keyboard as well as the clothing you wear.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
The AWANA games include passing batons through your legs. Girls and boys, men and women participate together. My jeans cover me very well.


Diane

Diane,
I really did not want to say anything when you mentioned this earlier in this thread. But, do you really think that this is discreet behavior?

 

[dianetavegia]

Yes I do. We also sit on balloons and see who can pop them first.

HCL... I don't find 'the devil on every doorstop' and see evil as quickly as you seem to see it. Playing with these unchurched children is another way I can show the love of Jesus. If that means letting them jump on my back or crawl around on the floor in races... then so be it.

Diane

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Diana, please not I placed the question firmly in Column 3. Hence, the question is does a size 6 in a pair of "baggies" (however you wish to call them) fit the answer to the question of wearing modest apparel? At this point, we may even be getting into Column 4 (Personal Preferences). If we are, you're on your own.

 

[dianetavegia]

Squire, you mentioned climbing a ladder to paint a house while wearing culottes. That can be VERY revealing to the one standing below. Very immodest!! In those circumstances, jeans or pants would, IMHO, be much more modest.

My size is mentioned because I would not 'fill out' the legs on those culottes ........

Diane

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I quite agree, though most of the coulottes I've seen have been custom made for the wearer. (They just don't seem to be widely sold out here in Corinth-by-the Bay.) So, their cut is appropriate to their owner. As I said before, we are dealing with the application of Biblical Truth (Col. 1) and its Logical Conclusions (Col 2). Hence, your application may or may not be the same as mine. But, I trust our goals (Cols 1 and 2) are the same.

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Timothy1969, ALL the translations support it being HER clothes! We can't play games with scripture to fit our own thoughts....

Diane

that's true, that's why i don't favor ignoring the direct commands regarding these things in the new testament.

you're not following the argument - i'm not saying they're not hers, i'm saying she makes them for her husband and to sell.

we have to drop one of following four items

1) the new testament commands women not to wear expensive clothing
2) proverbs decribes the ideal (presumably sinless in these particular details) woman
3) proverbs indicates the ideal woman described WEARS expensive clothing
4) the bible is inerrant

4 is non-negotiable

1 is extremely clear, 2 is very clear, so in my opinion 3 has to go since the text does not actually come out and say she wears the expensive clothing she makes, just that it's hers - which can mean that in some sense they are intimately associated with her. from the context, i think it's speaking of the clothing she makes for her husband (some kind of leader), or to sell.

 

[timothy 1769]

i guess another possibility is that it's some dispensational type thing - proverbs describes the ideal woman under the old covenant, and peter and paul are adressing ladies of the new covenant. certainly a description of the ideal man of the old covenant would differ from that of the new.

in any event, the clear teaching of the apostles needs to be followed:

1Tim 2:
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1Peter 3:
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

 

[Headcoveredlady]

That makes a lot of sense that it might be the clothing she owns and is selling.

And that under the New Covenant we follow what is written there above the OT.

 

[Thankful]

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
Something I noticed about this discussion and the feminist one is that most of the pants wearing ladies also support AND teach mutual submission.

Paul taught mutual submission Eph.5:21-33

I did not say all of the ladies, but most. So, for me it confirms that what is in your heart does come out on your keyboard as well as the clothing you wear.

Amen, Sister HeadcoveredLady!!!