Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[Paul33]

Medical doctors!
Have you ever met a more conceited group of people. They are "body" mehanics. Their knowledge is extremely limited, but they act like they know everything.

I have, in recent days, however, met some very humble doctors. But they are rare.

 

[Craigbythesea]

BTW, my friends call me "Grif".

Grif

,

I see that I am your only friend

on this entire message board , but I love you a whole lot

so maybe that takes up the slack.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Thank you for sharing what is one person's opinion. Of course, everyone doesn't hold this opinion. Cases in point:

Jabbezzz,

Apparently you misunderstood my post! I wrote exclusively about those whose doctorate is an academic degree, that is, to the exclusion of professional degrees (medical, dental, etc.), political titles, etc.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Ziggy:
paidagogos: "TTU, I think, gave John R. Rice's horse an honorary Doctor of Horse Sense."

Correction (to avoid slandering TTU, which is a legitimate and accredited school, some of whose professors I know quite well):

John R. Rice's horse was was awarded the first honorary doctorate under the auspices of Hyles-Anderson College by Jack Hyles himself.

The second recipient of an honorary doctorate by H-A (also presented by Hyles himself) was Gail Riplinger.

Draw your own conclusions.

Yep--you're right. I was wrong.

It was Hyles. Sorry about that--missed one of those synaptic connections, I guess!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jabbezzz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
Yes, along with other things!

Ummm, let's see. Daily and weekly television/radio ministry, best-selling author, successful pastor.................'</font>[/QUOTE]Shore nuff! Jimmy Bakker was supposedly all the above too. And Hinny Pinny...uh....I mean Billy Henny....uh...perhaps........Benny Hinn. I thought it was Amway that made Charlie famous.

What radio/TV celeb preacher can't boast all of the above? Let's see now...Swindoll, MacArthur, Jeremiah, ad infinitum.

Yep, the LRS Th.D. has really hurt him.

Did it help him? I think he already had status and just needed something to dignify it. BTW, I've never seen Charles as a great scholar. He says some good things, as most SBC preachers do, but he preaches a lot of fluff and pabulum too. His books are addressed to the choir. They sell well to nice little old ladies. Nothing wrong in that except it doesn't necessarily impress me.

And let's not forget Spiros Zodhiates, leader of AMG publishers. The guy is a Greek scholar, prolific writer and author of numerous books.

Yeah, I respect Spiros but I've never really seen anything great or innovative from him. Does he have any really good ideas that didn't come from other men. His most valuable contribution is providing some good study tools, but he has nothing original or earthshaking.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Many people call me "Pastor Bob" or since 1980 "Dr Bob". Guess it is the formal title and informal nickname.

I go by "Bob" everywhere. Many at church will pray for "Bob" as he preaches, etc. I personally love that informality.

BTW, my friends call me "Grif".

Methinks they did you a disservice when they dropped the pastor appellation. What can be more honorable than recognizing you as the undershepherd who serves the Chief Shepherd, Jesus Christ? IMHO, an honor conferred by men is less worthy than the calling by Christ. Personally, I intentionally use pastor as showing higher respect in preference to the doctor.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Proves that Jack knew the value of a degree from his school!

Serious question on topic: Would a school like HAC (with a campus and classroom instruction) be considered as a "mill"?

No, it is not a degree mill in the fraudulent sense. One must meet their requirements, however pathetic, for a degree. On the other hand, one can question the quality of its academic program. It may be a poor school but it is not a counterfeit school. It does teach something.

Knowing that you are a War for South Independence buff, have you read the former Hyles-Anderson history prof’s—can’t recall his name--book on America history? It’s a crock! His historiography is claptrap.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jabbezzz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
Yes, along with other things!

Ummm, let's see. Daily and weekly television/radio ministry, best-selling author, successful pastor.................'

Yep, the LRS Th.D. has really hurt him.

[snip] </font>[/QUOTE]

Jack Van Impe has his doctorate from Christian Bible College, a notorious degree mill in Rocky Mount, NC. Seems that he fits the above vitae except you substitute evangelist for pastor.

So, what have you proven?

 

[paidagogos]

There are some things that I will never understand. Kurt Koch, now deceased, had degrees from highbrow German schools and he was an internationally recognized authority on demonology with his books considered some of the definitive works on the subject. Yet, he received a doctorate from a degree mill, Christian Bible College in Rocky Mount, NC, and he lauded the school in several letters and statements. Was it vanity that caused him to want an American doctorate? Did he not know that he was dealing with a degree mill? What do you think?

 

[Jabbezzz]

Your observations are noted! However, Stanley's writings and academic background are not designed to impress you, they are designed to facilitate maturity among the body of Christ.

Regarding Zodhiates, his ministry has enhanced the ministry of myriad ministers, thereby, expanding the kingdom.

The truth is, a large percentage of those who earn regionally accredited/nationally accredited doctorates produce nothing "earthshaking." And for many, the "original contribution" they make is within their own context.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
There are some things that I will never understand. Kurt Koch, now deceased, had degrees from highbrow German schools and he was an internationally recognized authority on demonology with his books considered some of the definitive works on the subject. Yet, he received a doctorate from a degree mill, Christian Bible College in Rocky Mount, NC, and he lauded the school in several letters and statements. Was it vanity that caused him to want an American doctorate? Did he not know that he was dealing with a degree mill? What do you think?

Public endorsements are a big business!

 

[scubablt]

Greetings, Let's face it, this is a topic in church life that people will continue disagreeing on 'til Jesus comes! Those who have no degree(s) will talk about the uselessness of such matters and will trivialize academic pursuits and accomplishments to somehow justify their lack of such things. It is interesting to note that generally speaking, the people who criticize a degree(s) are the ones who do not have one. Yet, these same people would often times give their 1st bron child or at least their right arm to have a degree of some kind!

And those with a degree(s) will most assuredly be proud of it (as well they should) and will often times feel the need to make it known that they spent 4 - 10 years and $100,000 + earning the degree(s). So what if people call them "Dr." if indeed they earned the respect of the title? As one man said, titles are used all over the world and for good and honorable reason.

HOWEVER, ack to the subject of "mail-order" diplomas or "EZ ride" schools that require virtually ZERO time on campus. I still hold to the theory that listing such useless academic references on a resume only harms the chances of gaining mneaningful church employment, and the person is better off with no advanced degree at all. My opinion, but at least I have one.

BLT

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by scubablt:
the subject of "mail-order" diplomas or "EZ ride" schools that require virtually ZERO time on campus. I still hold to the theory that listing such useless academic references

You fail to differentiate between degree mills and substantive schools which offer distance learning degree programs. Currently, over 200 regionally accredited schools offer entire degree programs via distance learning, without having to spend one day on campus. Same curriculum, same requirements, no time on campus. Many offer graduate programs, and a few offer the Ph.D. without ever attending classes. Northcentral University (www.ncu.edu) is one such school, offering a regionally accredited Ph.D. entirely via distance education.

Distance education does not define a degree mill. Schools which offer doctorates for 5 page dissertations do.........

 

[LarryN]

paidagogos wrote:

Knowing that you are a War for South Independence buff, have you read the former Hyles-Anderson history prof’s—can’t recall his name--book on America history? It’s a crock! His historiography is claptrap.

The book referred to is William P. Grady's What Hath God Wrought!.

Among the large variety of historical nuances that mainstream, professional historians apparently have missed (but that Grady claims to have identified) is this gem: President's Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley were each assassinated as a direct result of God's wrath at recently published translations of the Bible. (Grady is a rabid KJVO, if you may be wondering.) Grady makes no such claim however in regards to Kennedy's assassination; and we're left to speculate that the unsuccessful attempts on the lives of Truman, Ford, and Reagan must mean that God's trigger-finger is getting a bit rusty; or perhaps His aim isn't quite what it once was. &lt;sarcasm off&gt;

Still interested in the book? It's available on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962880922/qid=1100271472/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2968450-1062202?v=glance&s=books

You'll notice several starry-eyed reviews on Amazon, which sadly doesn't surprise me.

 

[rufus]

paidagogos said:

"Wonderful, Dr. Rufus! Do you use your Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Ugaritic, etc. very much in ministry? I'm sure that you're conversant with these, of course."

You forgot German, friend.

I exegete with the help of my Hebrew and Greek tools, which I learned to use in my Master's Degree Studies.

I do not allow my church members to call me "Dr. or Pope or Reverend." I like Pastor very much.

Rufus

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by scubablt:

[snip] It is interesting to note that generally speaking, the people who criticize a degree(s) are the ones who do not have one. Yet, these same people would often times give their 1st bron child or at least their right arm to have a degree of some kind!

And those with a degree(s) will most assuredly be proud of it (as well they should) and will often times feel the need to make it known that they spent 4 - 10 years and $100,000 + earning the degree(s). So what if people call them "Dr." if indeed they earned the respect of the title? As one man said, titles are used all over the world and for good and honorable reason.

[snip]
BLT

Well, I have the degrees and none are mail order. Yet, you've read my posts. Judge me by my performance, not my degrees. We tarry too long and worship at the shrine of education by degrees.

As Ben Franklin reportedly said, "Since America does not grant titles of nobility, we are destined to hobble down to our graves on crutches of capital letters." Well said, Ben!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by LarryN:
paidagogos wrote: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Knowing that you are a War for South Independence buff, have you read the former Hyles-Anderson history prof’s—can’t recall his name--book on America history? It’s a crock! His historiography is claptrap.

The book referred to is William P. Grady's What Hath God Wrought!.

Among the large variety of historical nuances that mainstream, professional historians apparently have missed (but that Grady claims to have identified) is this gem: President's Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley were each assassinated as a direct result of God's wrath at recently published translations of the Bible. (Grady is a rabid KJVO, if you may be wondering.) Grady makes no such claim however in regards to Kennedy's assassination; and we're left to speculate that the unsuccessful attempts on the lives of Truman, Ford, and Reagan must mean that God's trigger-finger is getting a bit rusty; or perhaps His aim isn't quite what it once was. &lt;sarcasm off&gt;

Still interested in the book? It's available on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962880922/qid=1100271472/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2968450-1062202?v=glance&s=books

You'll notice several starry-eyed reviews on Amazon, which sadly doesn't surprise me. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, that's the guy. You ought to read some claptrap that he writes in the Baptist Trumpet (SC). I think his degree is from some notorious degree mill. Does anyone know for certain?

 

[Dr. Gerald Click]

Dr Wm P Grady's bio can be found here: http://www.chick.com/information/authors/grady.asp
Baptist International School of Theology is mentioned, the closest I could find on google.com is Bill Bright's now defunct International School of Theology. It does mention that he was on the staff of Hyles-Anderson, I'm not sure of what capacity.It appears he contributes a lot of material to Jack Chick, of Chick Tract fame.

 

[rufus]

paidagogos = schoolmaster in Galatians 3:24,25, but the idea of instruction is absent. The idea is that of training, discipline, not impartation of knowledge, but discipline toward moral conduct in the child over which the school master supervises.

See Strong's # 3807
and Greek/English Lexicon page 603

Rufus

 

[gb93433]

I see students all the time who think knowledge isn't worth much. They are also the laziest students in class both in lab and studying. I find that generally their habits and discipline are poor also. I have only been working in the buisness world in what I teach for 31 years. But somehow there are those who think all of their learning will happen once they leave school.

Remember the school system in the OT. It was not just training and it was not just knowledge. It was a lot of memorization.

If I needed heart surgery I wouldn't want a doctor to cut me open who had never read a book and never went to conferences to learn more and only had a limited experience of what a local heart surgeon could teach him. I would want someone who is sharp intellectually, current on the best methods and had lots of experience. I would want the best.

Should God get any less than our best?