Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[gb93433]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
I have a friend who is a MD and she didn't attend class (i.e. lectures) in med school. She did the practicals and studied for the tests. Do you ever wonder about your doctor?

I don't wonder about my friends who are doctors. They are great, diligent Christians. My daughter wants to be a doctor. She studies hard and has been a straight A student since entering kindergarten. She is also in the 98th and 99th percentile in the standardized tests. She is smart and works hard, reads constantly, goes out for sports, and is learning to play the piano. She does not sit around the house and watch TV. Everyone ought to be a lifelong student not just stop with the introdction of college. College should be a comma and not a period.


Ever wonder about how many pastors go to seminary just so they can get a job? I have known many who are an embarassment to me who talk about how they got their ticket of an M.Div. fromsome seminary. I heard one even brag about how he got through without ever writing a paper. When I ask them who they had for Greek and Hebrew it tells me everything about their attitude toward learning. What a waste of time for men like that who will go to class and not study. They have just put in seat time without learning just waiting for the day they get their degree. They may have a few degrees but not much temperature. But then I have seen those who are too lazy to take the higher road because it might require moving and some serious study. It might require living on less money. It might also create more stress in their life because they wil have to study and maybe work. So their time will be divided.

But a lot of people like to be razzled and dazzled by them with their nice words instead of their pastor challenging them to come and do ministry with him or take on the challenge of a ministry they will lead.

 

[Craigbythesea]

paidagogos = schoolmaster in Galatians 3:24,25, but the idea of instruction is absent. The idea is that of training, discipline, not impartation of knowledge, but discipline toward moral conduct in the child over which the school master supervises.

Training and discipline are necessary for all children, but a child without knowledge does not belong in the pulpit (with or without phony degrees).

 

[Craigbythesea]

My daughter wants to be a doctor. She studies hard and has been a straight A student since entering kindergarten. She is also in the 98th and 99th percentile in the standardized tests. She is smart and works hard, reads constantly, goes out for sports, and is learning to play the piano. She does not sit around the house and watch TV.

On the basis of this description I would say that your daughter would be an outstanding role model for those aspiring to become pastors.

Everyone ought to be a lifelong student not just stop with the introdction of college. College should be a comma and not a period.

Amen!

Ever wonder about how many pastors go to seminary just so they can get a job? I have known many who are an embarassment to me who talk about how they got their ticket of an M.Div. fromsome seminary. I heard one even brag about how he got through without ever writing a paper. When I ask them who they had for Greek and Hebrew it tells me everything about their attitude toward learning. What a waste of time for men like that who will go to class and not study. They have just put in seat time without learning just waiting for the day they get their degree. They may have a few degrees but not much temperature. But then I have seen those who are too lazy to take the higher road because it might require moving and some serious study. It might require living on less money. It might also create more stress in their life because they wil have to study and maybe work. So their time will be divided.

But a lot of people like to be razzled and dazzled by them with their nice words instead of their pastor challenging them to come and do ministry with him or take on the challenge of a ministry they will lead.

Amen!

Thank you for this excellent post!

 

[Charles Meadows]

"Medical doctors!
Have you ever met a more conceited group of people. They are "body" mehanics. Their knowledge is extremely limited, but they act like they know everything.

I have, in recent days, however, met some very humble doctors. But they are rare."

AHEM...

I would not say they are rare. The doctors who DO know their stuff the best are typically the more humble ones!

And the body is alot more complicated than a car!

 

[Charles Meadows]

It seems to me that those with degrees from "degree mills" do so for different reasons. For many it may be the only option location-wise or money-wise.

It's a shame that these men feel they have to get a degree to be a real pastor. I've met many seminary grads who preach one heck of a HO HUM sermon! I almost prefer someone who speaks from the heart and not from an outline. If I want to study scripture I go to my upstairs library. I like to be ministered to and refreshed in church. My father in law is a dynamic and powerful preacher who has read as much as any seminary grad - but he never had the money (4 kids) to go to seminary.

My one problem with many of the "degree-mill" schools is that they don't really foster studying. They often regurgitate a preplanned theology - not really teaching anything close to graduate level stuff.

My ex-brother-in-law got an undergrad degree in bible from Liberty (not a degree mill). His only exposure to Karl Barth, Thomas Aquinas, Rudolf Bultmann, etc was a quick statement here or there relating why we can easily discount their works.

His was an indoctrination and not really an education. He could have absorbed exactly the same information by simply raiding the local Zondervan Family Bible bookstore!!

Does that degree really mean much?

Other than a paper what did this degree get him??

 

[Dr. Bob]

Most ifb traditional Bible colleges and Seminaries will not spend much time on Barth, Aquinas or Bultmann.

Too much time needed to spend on study of the Word than on study of these men and their teachings.

Can't condemn "mills" when the regular schools ignore these men, too.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Most ifb traditional Bible colleges and Seminaries will not spend much time on Barth, Aquinas or Bultmann.

Too much time needed to spend on study of the Word than on study of these men and their teachings.

Can't condemn "mills" when the regular schools ignore these men, too.

ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC and the very reason why many Baptists do NOT settle for either degree mills or run of the mill schools knowing that enormously better schools are there to provide their students with an excellent rather than a pitifully poor education.

Furthermore, a real seminary is not a place to study the Bible! A Seminary is a place to be equipped for a lifetime of study of the Bible and a place to challenge preconceived childish notions that we learned in the primary division of our church's Sunday school program and a place to challenge the very core our of thinking and understanding to make men of God out of us rather than fools that merely recite what they were spoon-fed in a Bible institute called a seminary.

Who were the men that we know as Karl Barth, Thomas Aquinas, and Rudolf Bultman(n). What did they believe and what were the factors that caused them to believe as they did. How and in what ways do the thoughts and teachings of these men impact the thoughts and teachings of other theologians?

The weight of existentialism has been felt most directly in the field of biblical studies, particularly in connection with hermeneutical methods for discovering the meaning of the New Testament message. There is perhaps no clearer example of the mutual influence between biblical studies and theological studies than the work of Bultmann. Not only did he himself overtly affirm the philosophical/theological pre- suppositions of existentialism for New Testament studies, but he has also led the whole contemporary theological community into a reconsideration of hermeneutical method in the light of existentialist questions. In order to appreciate many of the issues raised in seminary classrooms today, one must know something about Bultmann's widely promulgated perspective.

He contends that critical research into the past is unable to recover the actual historical events of Jesus' life. Not only is such knowledge nonessential for the experience of faith, it is actually motivated by that which is a threat to faith, in that it seeks legitimation, any form of which is a denial of the essential nature of faith. As he says in Jesus Christ and Mythology: "There is no difference between security based on good works and security built on objectifying knowledge." Faith is the self-authenticating experience of God and needs no external verification in order for it to be legitimate. Faith, in his view, is not centered in the historical figure of Jesus who lived in the past but in the presently proclaimed Christly message. Even the New Testament records give evidence that there were many who, even though they knew the historical Jesus, nevertheless did not have faith in the kerygmatic Christ. The kerygma does not stand or fall on the adequacy or inadequacy of historical research but depends ultimately on its power to call forth existential faith.

The word most often associated with Bultmann is demythologizing. Simply put, Bultmann held that myth is that which gives worldly objectivity to that which is unworldly. In his concern to release the kerygmatic Christ from any and all historical, cultural, and cosmological limitations, which he designates as myths, he sets out to demythologize the New Testament Christ figure.

Gilbert W. Stafford, Th.D.
Professor of Christian Theology
Anderson University School of Theology

 

[rufus]

Training and discipline are necessary for all children, but a child without knowledge does not belong in the pulpit (with or without phony degrees).

Is that your exegesis of Gal. 3:24,25?

Rufus

 

[Charles Meadows]

"Most ifb traditional Bible colleges and Seminaries will not spend much time on Barth, Aquinas or Bultmann.

Too much time needed to spend on study of the Word than on study of these men and their teachings."

True enough Dr Bob. And I certainly don't begrudge anyone trying to improve his/her knowledge by enrolling in a local bible college.

I have a problem with "degree mills" offering doctoral degrees however. In my opinion to get a PhD or ThD one should have to study theology in depth, exploring liberal and conservative views and the pros and cons thereof.

3 years spent reading ONLY "fundamentalist" theology might make one more knowledgeable about his convictions but it doesn't merit a ThD. Neither does simply memorizing the old 19th century Greek verbal syntax from Dana Mantey or the like.

Again - I've got no problem with the "degree mills" per se. But they have no business offering advanced degrees to those who have NEVER done any advanced studies.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I believe that I need to post an additional message to put into perspective what I believe regarding excellent schools and an excellent education.

We live today in a highly sophisticated and informed world where even the young people in our churches have ready access to vast amounts of knowledge. And it is common today to have in our congregations several or more members who have earned one or more doctorates, and some of them from one or more prestigious institutions of higher learning. Therefore a pastor with anything less than a truly excellent education from fine schools in going to repeatedly come up short, not only in the pulpit, but in his everyday relationships with the members of his congregation.

Our young people today are searching for answers to highly complex questions, the answers to which may greatly impact their lives. The more of those questions our pastors can answer accurately and appropriately, the less our young people are going to look for the answers elsewhere. And even the simple folks in our churches find themselves faced with immensely difficult questions when they find it difficult to conceive children and when the children that have already been born to them become critically injured or critically ill and they are faced with decisions such as maintaining life support and organ donations.

And it has become common place for laymen in our churches to take up the study of New Testament Greek and to have questions about perfect passive participles and their bearing upon faith, belief, and salvation. And we have countless thousands of Christian laymen participating on Christian message boards where a nearly infinite number of theological issues are discussed and debated, raising questions in their minds. More than ever before the quality of our pastor’s education is a major issue!

But at the same time, the host of perplexing questions requires not only sound and accurate academic answers, but sound and accurate spiritual answers that do not come from the seminary classroom, but from the heart of a pastor whose heart is one with God. All the education from all the best schools will not make a man holy or devout. These absolutely essential attributes of a pastor come only from a consistently intimate walk with Christ in full surrender to Him and His will.

When the Holy Spirit guides the hands of a surgeon in the operating room, He uses the knowledge, skill, equipment, and tools of the surgeon. And when the Holy Spirit guides the mouth of the pastor in the pulpit and in counseling sessions, He uses the knowledge, skill, equipment, and tools of the pastor.

Psalm 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psalm 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Prov. 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

To summarize, I believe that a well-equipped pastor is one who has:

Clean hands
A pure heart
And a good education

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I believe that a well-equipped pastor is one who has:

Clean hands
A pure heart
And a good education

But of the three, which is the most important?

 

[Craigbythesea]

But of the three, which is the most important?

I have personally seen pastors fail and congregations destroyed because the pastor lacked each one of these three things. All three are essential, and there is no excuse for the absence of any of them.

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me.”

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I have personally seen pastors fail and congregations destroyed because the pastor lacked each one of these three things. All three are essential, and there is no excuse for the absence of any of them.

But if you could only choose two of the three, which two would it be?

 

[gb93433]

When I was a student in seminary one of the men sitting next to me worked for a very large company as an executive. One day we were talking about what we wanted to do once we graduated. He told me that he came to seminary ot be a better Sunday School teacher. That is commendable. Imagine a man taking the time and money to become the best Sunday School teacher he could possibly be. If we have people like that in our churches how much more the pastor should be.

 

[Craigbythesea]

But if you could only choose two of the three, which two would it be?

Fortunately, God does not call upon us to make non-viable choices.

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Fortunately, God does not call upon us to make non-viable choices.

But many a good pastor invested his entire life in the ministry WITHOUT a good education. This is especially true in the more rural areas of the country.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Dr. Gerald Click:
Dr Wm P Grady's bio can be found here: http://www.chick.com/information/authors/grady.asp
Baptist International School of Theology is mentioned, the closest I could find on google.com is Bill Bright's now defunct International School of Theology. It does mention that he was on the staff of Hyles-Anderson, I'm not sure of what capacity.It appears he contributes a lot of material to Jack Chick, of Chick Tract fame.

Don't think it was Bill Bright's school. There are (were?) several degree mills with similar names. One was located in FL. It is hard to keep track of degree mills since they move around and change their names frequently.

 

[LarryN]

Here's Grady's bio, showing his "degrees":

http://www.chick.com/information/authors/grady.asp

The D.D. listed is, of course, simply an honorary degree. The Th.M listed is in "English Bible" (translation: King James Onlyism). The Ph.D shown is from "Baptist International Seminary" (located in Cali, Columbia!, according to a Google search) and is in "History". Not "Church History", but simply in "History"- not something you'd normally see in a legitimate seminary degree!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But of the three, which is the most important?

I have personally seen pastors fail and congregations destroyed because the pastor lacked each one of these three things. All three are essential, and there is no excuse for the absence of any of them.

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me.”

</font>[/QUOTE]There a lot of duds out there with enviable credentials. In fact, guys from certain supposedly highbrow seminaries are pretty much known for their dullness and mediocrity. On the other hand, some pretty successful and provocative sorts of guys have their degrees from less than wonderful institutions with regard to accreditation, reputation, etc. Do you know where such guys as James White, Kenneth Gentry, George Grant, and Thomas Ice earned their doctorates?

 

[LarryN]

I tried Googling "Baptist International School of Theology" (listed as one of Grady's alma maters)- and the only reference I find to a school by that name (other than in Grady's own bio) is in the nation of Cameroon.

So as far as I can determine, his Th.M is from a school in Columbia, and his Ph.D from a school in Cameroon.