Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[Craigbythesea]

But many a good pastor invested his entire life in the ministry WITHOUT a good education. This is especially true in the more rural areas of the country.

And we have thousands of Kingdom Halls and Mormon Temples to show for it, along with a thousand and one other cults and heresies.

99.99% of those men who are called by God to become medical doctors KNOW that call INCLUDES the call to earn a doctorate in medicine, and the few who don’t end up in prison for practicing medicine without a license.

I think that it is about time that the country bumpkins and hillbillies began to realize that those who perform spiritual surgery on the hearts and souls of men need to invest about eight years of their life to studying before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Jabbezzz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Fortunately, God does not call upon us to make non-viable choices.

But many a good pastor invested his entire life in the ministry WITHOUT a good education. This is especially true in the more rural areas of the country. </font>[/QUOTE]The best judge of that is another in the same kind of ministry. I followed one of those kind of men in ministry and had so many things to deal with following him. They had heard poor sermons and didn't know it. AT first they would say things that indicated they didn't know much about what I was preaching on. They would even say things like, "I've never heard that before." What I realized is the previous pastored was not much of a student. He was a good visitor but didn't teach them to have reasons for their faith. He was a very likeable person but left them weak theologically. I had to deal with a number of doctrines they were weak in. Many times I would hear things and cringe.

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
99.99% of those men who are called by God to become medical doctors KNOW that call INCLUDES the call to earn a doctorate in medicine, and the few who don’t end up in prison for practicing medicine without a license.

I think that it is about time that the country bumpkins and hillbillies began to realize that those who perform spiritual surgery on the hearts and souls of men need to invest about eight years of their life to studying before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

This is because the MD is the minimum requirement to legally practice medicine. No such requirement exists (i.e., an earned doctorate) within ecclesiastical circles for a minister to serve the parish.

Should a minister avail himself of each and every opportunity to further his academic training? Yes, by all means. But every man does not have the opportunity to earn a doctorate.

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Do you know where such guys as James White, Kenneth Gentry, George Grant, and Thomas Ice earned their doctorates?

James White earned undergrad and master's degrees from regionally accredited schools, then earned a master's and doctorate from the unaccredited Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Thomas Ice earned his PhD from the unaccredited Louisiana Baptist University. Charles Stanley earned his ThM and ThD from Luther Rice Seminary, years before it was TRACS accredited.

 

[Craigbythesea]

This is because the MD is the minimum requirement to legally practice medicine. No such requirement exists (i.e., an earned doctorate) within ecclesiastical circles for a minister to serve the parish.

And that is precisely why we have so many satanic cults and every imaginable heresy! Can you even begin to imagine what the medical profession would be like if we allowed uneducated baboons to practice medicine? Joseph Smith, Bringham Young, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, Shoko Asahara, David Koresh, Marshall Herff Applewhite, Bonnie Nettles, Jeffrey Lundgren, Joseph Kibweteere, Luc Jouret, and Joseph Di Mambro were all fools that believed they were called by God but none of them had an academic education in Christian theology and have led millions upon millions of people into hell for eternity.

Should a minister avail himself of each and every opportunity to further his academic training? Yes, by all means. But every man does not have the opportunity to earn a doctorate.

And every man is not called to be a pastor. As one man asked the pastor of his church, “Was ya called, or did ya jus’ went?” God has proven hundreds of thousands of times that he is able to bless every man that he has called to be a medical doctor with fine education and an earned doctorate. Am I to understand that God is NOT able to do the same for every man that He calls to be a pastor? The God that I know is more than able to do that.

Is an earned doctorate a guarantee of competency? No, it is not. Not even all medical doctors are competent . . . but is lowering the standard the solution?

If God called you to be a pastor while you were taking a shower, don’t you suppose that He would expect you to have enough sense to dry yourself off and get dressed before stepping behind the pulpit?

 

[scooter]

craigbythesea wrote,

I think that it is about time that the country bumpkins and hillbillies began to realize that those who perform spiritual surgery on the hearts and souls of men need to invest about eight years of their life to studying before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

and

Is an earned doctorate a guarantee of competency? No, it is not. Not even all medical doctors are competent . . . but is lowering the standard the solution?

Let's weigh this against what scripture mandates. An elder is to be apt to teach, not a novice, grounded in the faith, to preach the word, to rightly divide the word of truth, etc. I don't want to put words in your mouth - so please correct me if I am wrong - but, it appears that you have decided that the only way to do that is by spending eight years studying at an accredited school and earning a doctorate, and that anything else is a lowering of standards. What standard?

Another comment you made is worthy of discussion, perhaps in another forum:

before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

What exactly do you mean by this? Godly men, who aren't trained to your standards are actually doing the devil's work?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Let's weigh this against what scripture mandates. An elder is to be apt to teach, not a novice, grounded in the faith, to preach the word, to rightly divide the word of truth, etc. I don't want to put words in your mouth - so please correct me if I am wrong - but, it appears that you have decided that the only way to do that is by spending eight years studying at an accredited school and earning a doctorate, and that anything else is a lowering of standards. What standard?

I do not believe that the standard for pastoring a church should be a lower standard than for practicing medicine. In New Testament times the Christians knew the Greek language and the customs and cultures of their day and they didn’t have 2,000 years of theological development, transition, and abandonment to be concerned about. But just the opposite is the case today and we have hundreds of thousands of churches being pastored by grossly incompetent pastors that are making a mockery not only of Christianity and the Bible, but of Christ Himself. Personally, I do not find this to be acceptable.

Another comment you made is worthy of discussion, perhaps in another forum:
quote:

before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

What exactly do you mean by this? Godly men, who aren't trained to your standards are actually doing the devil's work?

The lack of a solid education in Biblical studies produced the likes of Joseph Smith, Bringham Young, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, Shoko Asahara, David Koresh, Marshall Herff Applewhite, Bonnie Nettles, Jeffrey Lundgren, Joseph Kibweteere, Luc Jouret, and Joseph Di Mambro. These were all fools that believed that they were called by God but none of them had an academic education in Christian theology and they have led millions upon millions of people into hell for eternity.

 

[scooter]

scooter wrote,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another comment you made is worthy of discussion, perhaps in another forum:
quote:

before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

What exactly do you mean by this? Godly men, who aren't trained to your standards are actually doing the devil's work?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craigbythesea responded,

The lack of a solid education in Biblical studies produced the likes of Joseph Smith, Bringham Young, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, Shoko Asahara, David Koresh, Marshall Herff Applewhite, Bonnie Nettles, Jeffrey Lundgren, Joseph Kibweteere, Luc Jouret, and Joseph Di Mambro. These were all fools that believed that they were called by God but none of them had an academic education in Christian theology and they have led millions upon millions of people into hell for eternity.

I disagree. Their fundamental problem was not a lack of "academic education in Christian theology", but that they were unregenerate and were consequently unable to understand the truth of God's word. All the academic education in the world is not going to bring someone to the saving knowledge of Christ.

 

[scooter]

scooter wrote,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another comment you made is worthy of discussion, perhaps in another forum:
quote:

before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

What exactly do you mean by this? Godly men, who aren't trained to your standards are actually doing the devil's work?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craigbythesea responded,

The lack of a solid education in Biblical studies produced the likes of Joseph Smith, Bringham Young, Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Charles Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, Shoko Asahara, David Koresh, Marshall Herff Applewhite, Bonnie Nettles, Jeffrey Lundgren, Joseph Kibweteere, Luc Jouret, and Joseph Di Mambro. These were all fools that believed that they were called by God but none of them had an academic education in Christian theology and they have led millions upon millions of people into hell for eternity.

I disagree. Their fundamental problem was not a lack of "academic education in Christian theology", but that they were unregenerate and were consequently unable to understand the truth of God's word. All the academic education in the world is not going to bring someone to the saving knowledge of Christ.

 

[scooter]

sorry about the double post - must have had a finger twitch!

 

[scooter]

Craigbythesea wrote,

I do not believe that the standard for pastoring a church should be a lower standard than for practicing medicine. In New Testament times the Christians knew the Greek language and the customs and cultures of their day and they didn’t have 2,000 years of theological development, transition, and abandonment to be concerned about. But just the opposite is the case today and we have hundreds of thousands of churches being pastored by grossly incompetent pastors that are making a mockery not only of Christianity and the Bible, but of Christ Himself. Personally, I do not find this to be acceptable.

I agree that with the passing of 2,000 years, there are significant challenges to the man of God who desires to expound His word. However, the basic requirements as given in scripture do not change. Further, how did you come up with medical training as the standard the church is to emulate? Why stop there? Maybe twelve years is better? Are we trying to please God or men?

Having said this, I do agree in principle that there are too many churches with men who don't have sufficient training. Country bumpkins, hillbillies, and grossly incompetent? Those aren't words I would use to describe any believer.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I disagree. Their fundamental problem was not a lack of "academic education in Christian theology", but that they were unregenerate and were consequently unable to understand the truth of God's word. All the academic education in the world is not going to bring someone to the saving knowledge of Christ.

Scooter,

It is easy to say that none of these men or women were ever saved in the first place, but we really don't know that. And we do know that we have today tens of thousands of pastors in the United States alone that are preaching a lot of nonsense as a consequence of the lack of even a basic knowledge of the Bible. And even worse, very many of them are still in the throws of sin because they have not learned so much as the basic teaching of the Gospel, and they are “pastoring” people with needs that they have not been trained to meet. The medical establishment has made giant strides to prevent such occurrences in their ranks, but the church has to a very great extent ignored the problem.

Oh, by the way . . . welcome to the Baptist Board. It is good to have you aboard and participating.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Those aren't words I would use to describe any believer.

Sugar-coating the truth is not telling the truth.

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
If God called you to be a pastor while you were taking a shower, don’t you suppose that He would expect you to have enough sense to dry yourself off and get dressed before stepping behind the pulpit?

Indeed he would, Craig! To walk directly into the pulpit, soaking wet and dripping, wearing nothing more than one's birthday suit, would violate a few of those New Testament verses regarding modesty.

Lest you think I attempt to justify shallow academic training, let me premise this post with a statement. I have earned degrees, including a doctorate, from regionally and ATS accredited institutions. I earned a second doctorate from a non-regionally/ATS accredited institution, one which is denominationally approved for training its ministers. I served on the faculty at a regionally accredited Bible College for four years, served in the training of ministers for well over a decade now, and also pursue personal continuing education opportunities as time permits. I share this, not to boast, but to let know I understand the importance of formal ministerial training and development.

That said, I know myriad ministers who have never had the opportunities for further training which I have enjoyed. To negate, demean or criticize their calling, importance and effectiveness has no validity in my opinion. Laziness and intentional lack of preparation is one thing, lack of opportunity is another. Following your logic, 11 of the 12 apostles should never have been appointed by Jesus............

 

[scooter]

Sugar-coating the truth is not telling the truth.

Who said anything about sugar-coating the truth? I just said I wouldn't use those particular words!

 

[Craigbythesea]

lack of opportunity is another.

That is your perspective; mine is quite different. Obviously enough, if the medical profession had that perspective, . . . .

P.S. Thank you for sharing with us your background, and thank you for defending the very many fine men in our pulpits around the world who are lacking in professional training.

 

[scooter]

It is easy to say that none of these men or women were ever saved in the first place, but we really don't know that. And we do know that we have today tens of thousands of pastors in the United States alone that are preaching a lot of nonsense as a consequence of the lack of even a basic knowledge of the Bible. And even worse, very many of them are still in the throws of sin because they have not learned so much as the basic teaching of the Gospel, and they are “pastoring” people with needs that they have not been trained to meet. The medical establishment has made giant strides to prevent such occurrences in their ranks, but the church has to a very great extent ignored the problem.

Interesting. Your first group preaches nonsense because they don't have a basic knowledge of scripture. Well, they are clearly not qualified for church leadership because they don't meet the qualifications set forth in scripture. Your second group is also disqualified from leadership because they also don't meet scriptural standards - they are caught up in sin. My point is that God sets the standard, not us, not academia, not the medical community. The standard is in the Bible.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Who said anything about sugar-coating the truth?

I did.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The standard is in the Bible.

1Tim. 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Tim. 3:2. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, (NASB, 1995)

And just how should the 21st century church define “able to teach?” Perhaps we should define it in the same way that we define “able to practice medicine.”

 

[scooter]

And just how should the 21st century church define “able to teach?” Perhaps we should define it in the same way that we define “able to practice medicine.”

Now we have got to the heart of the issue (excuse the pun). You seem to be enamored with the medical profession. By any chance are you a physician? Or, a wannabe physician? More seriously, you ask a great question. How do we define "able to teach"? Why would you use the medical profession to set the standard?