Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But many a good pastor invested his entire life in the ministry WITHOUT a good education. This is especially true in the more rural areas of the country.

And we have thousands of Kingdom Halls and Mormon Temples to show for it, along with a thousand and one other cults and heresies.

99.99% of those men who are called by God to become medical doctors KNOW that call INCLUDES the call to earn a doctorate in medicine, and the few who don’t end up in prison for practicing medicine without a license.

I think that it is about time that the country bumpkins and hillbillies began to realize that those who perform spiritual surgery on the hearts and souls of men need to invest about eight years of their life to studying before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

</font>[/QUOTE]Oh yeah? Beginning with Crawford Toy, there’s a sad history of good Baptists who lost their faith in the German schools of higher criticism. There’s another element in this schema that I haven’t heard addressed on this thread—spirituality. Just what is the correlation between an academic education and spirituality? How do you measure spirituality? Do seminaries make men more spiritual or dry and dull? (I’ve known guys in school preparing to be ministers who smoked, cussed, and fornicated.) Let’s face it. There are all kinds of duds—both educated and uneducated. If you have your faith and trust in a seminary degree, then you are bound to be sadly disappointed. One of the most astute Bible expositors that I’ve heard was a guy who dropped out of school in the eighth grade.

If you haven’t not seen the point yet, please allow me to succinctly point it out. Schooling and degrees do not necessarily make for an education. Life, itself, is education. Although we have been led to believe differently, formal schooling does not make one educated. Anyone, if he is not mentally handicapped, can get a degree, even a graduate degree, nowadays. Degreed people do not belong to an elite club anymore.

 

[Benfranklin403]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;If you haven’t not seen the point yet, please allow me to succinctly point it out. Schooling and degrees do not necessarily make for an education. Life, itself, is education. Although we have been led to believe differently, formal schooling does not make one educated. Anyone, if he is not mentally handicapped, can get a degree, even a graduate degree, nowadays. Degreed people do not belong to an elite club anymore&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

You have drifted some from the topic. It is whether diploma mills or ethical. Personally I had rather see someone with no degree at all than one from a diploma mill. A diploma mill degree shows behavior that is not ethical, in my judgment.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Why would you use the medical profession to set the standard?

No, I am not a physician, and that is not my calling. I am using the medical profession as a model of high standards in education. And no, a good education does not make a good pastor any more than a good education makes a good doctor, but a good education is essential to both being a good pastor and a good doctor. And no, a degree mill or bargain basement education will not allow you to practice medicine, and I don’t believe it should allow you to be a pastor of God’s people. And no, I do not believe that we should leave it up to the House and the Senate to establish standards for the Church. The Church needs to act responsibly without mandates from Congress. And yes, I know better than to begin a sentence with a conjunction

.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Personally I had rather see someone with no degree at all than one from a diploma mill. A diploma mill degree shows behavior that is not ethical, in my judgment.

Amen!

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
And no, a good education does not make a good pastor any more than a good education makes a good doctor, but a good education is essential to both being a good pastor and a good doctor. And no, a degree mill or bargain basement education will not allow you to practice medicine, and I don’t believe it should allow you to be a pastor of God’s people.

But remember there are some churches who want a social coordinator not a genuine pastor.

 

[Charles Meadows]

The medical doctor analogy is interesting. Coincidently I am one! But I'm not sure I agree completely. Preparation for ministry is no less important than with a career such as medicine. But I think the preparation for ministry cannot necessarily be taught in the same way as pharmacology or anatomy.

My pastor has a DMin and he is a wonderful preacher and a man of God. My father in law has no degree whatsoever but is no less of a pastor. God has tremendously blessed his ministries over the years.

The main qualifications for pastor are a calling and a willingness. Most of the lousy pastors I've met would not have been improved by education - they simply should not be pastors in the first place!

Throughout the Bible God demonstrated that He could readily use those without formal education (apostles) just as those with it (Paul, Moses).

A pastor must be called and willing!

 

[Paul33]

Excellent Charles,

And then trained!

Even the apostles has on the job training with Jesus for three years. Perhaps the best seminary training ever.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Indeed. I certainly have no problem with seminaries. But not everyone can get to one or afford one. I think a man who truly has a calling and who is willing to listen to God can be a fine pastor even if he doesn't go to seminary.

Remember the job of pastor and theologian are different. I wouldn't advocate anyone go to teach in seminary without any education - but the job of pastor is a little different. A pastor must be knowledgeable yes but taht's only half the job. I think the willing man can receive "on the job training" from God as needed.

 

[Jim1999]

Is a degree, of any sort, just a key which opens the door of opportunity? The good student will learn anywhere and under any circumstances, even under his own tutelage.

Sometimes I think we put too much emphasis on degrees in pastoral roles. I well remember the days when ordinary pastors sought after DD's just to be called doctor...they never gained an ounce of education to go with it, but they did get to wear a fancy red scarf....

Cheers,

Jim

PS&gt; Let it be clear that I am for all the education one can afford, but let's not make it the end instead of the means to achieve that end.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Is a degree, of any sort, just a key which opens the door of opportunity? The good student will learn anywhere and under any circumstances, even under his own tutelage.

Sometimes I think we put too much emphasis on degrees in pastoral roles. I well remember the days when ordinary pastors sought after DD's just to be called doctor...they never gained an ounce of education to go with it, but they did get to wear a fancy red scarf....

Cheers,

Jim

PS&gt; Let it be clear that I am for all the education one can afford, but let's not make it the end instead of the means to achieve that end.

I agree. Education should not destroy a amn but help him have more passion and understanding.

Someone once asked me what was the main thing I took away from seminary. The person was surprised by my answer. I told that person that I better understood the compassion of Jesus. In Greek as we went through a number of the texts I began to realize the compassion Jesus showed. As we went through the books of the prophets in OT survey I began to better understand the great love God has for people and how He wants them to do what is right.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;If you haven’t not seen the point yet, please allow me to succinctly point it out. Schooling and degrees do not necessarily make for an education. Life, itself, is education. Although we have been led to believe differently, formal schooling does not make one educated. Anyone, if he is not mentally handicapped, can get a degree, even a graduate degree, nowadays. Degreed people do not belong to an elite club anymore&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

You have drifted some from the topic. It is whether diploma mills or ethical. Personally I had rather see someone with no degree at all than one from a diploma mill. A diploma mill degree shows behavior that is not ethical, in my judgment.

Well, yes and no. My theme is simply this: we are so prone to bow at the holy shrine of education that some people think a degree is more important than performance. No, degree mills are not ethical. Now, do you want to differentiate between degree mills and diploma mills? (see earlier posts)

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
[snip]
A pastor must be called and willing!

Willing, yes, but can you Biblically substantiate the calling part? Garry Friesen in his book, Decision Making and the Will of God, says no. I realize this is off topic but your statment just seemed too glib and off the tongue. I know, it is a cliche that we all say but is it true? How do we know and recognize the calling? Where does it explicitly say in Scripture taht a pastor is called by God? Does God or churches call pastors?

Perhaps, we need a new topic for this.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But many a good pastor invested his entire life in the ministry WITHOUT a good education. This is especially true in the more rural areas of the country.

And we have thousands of Kingdom Halls and Mormon Temples to show for it, along with a thousand and one other cults and heresies.

99.99% of those men who are called by God to become medical doctors KNOW that call INCLUDES the call to earn a doctorate in medicine, and the few who don’t end up in prison for practicing medicine without a license.

I think that it is about time that the country bumpkins and hillbillies began to realize that those who perform spiritual surgery on the hearts and souls of men need to invest about eight years of their life to studying before they begin to operate and chalk up more souls for the devil!

</font>[/QUOTE]Hogwash! I challenge your thesis! It is true that approximately 50,000 or more Baptists per year defect to the cults but I don’t accept your implication that these are people from rural churches with uneducated pastors. On the contrary, I content that they are from the dead, liberal churches whose pastors have seminary degrees. The defectors are disenchanted seekers who find no sense or satisfaction in the sterile, academic homilies of seminary-trained ministers.

Furthermore, it does not follow that just because a man does not have capital letters behind his name means that he isn’t a student of the Word. One of the best pastors that I’ve known had no degree but he was a faithful and diligent student of God’s Word. He faithfully fed his people with meat obtained by industrious study whereas many seminary grads, that I have known, give canned and warmed over homilies from their notes. Many seminary guys rest on their capital letters and fail to study. On the other hand, many non-degreed pastors spend many hours in study and preparation. Therefore, we cannot generalize that seminary-trained pastors are superior to non-degreed pastors.

Admittedly, there is a bias against education in some circles but it may not be without reason. Some pastors are suspicious of seminaries because they have sent their best and brightest off in good faith only to have them return in skepticism spouting liberal theology. No wonder some pastors are skittish about seminaries. And I concur. I would rather have a Bible-believing non-degreed pastor, who is a student of the English Bible, any day over the classically trained seminary intellectual who is an unbelieving liberal. Unfortunately, this is too often the choice.

On the other hand, it is sinful pride that leads the pastor to obtain a degree mill rag so that he appears to have academic respectability. Such a one is as bad as the unbelieving liberal.

 

[paidagogos]

Here is a good link for some free Biblical courses for those who are not sem grads.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Paidagogos,
great site. thanks.

 

[Charles Meadows]

"Willing, yes, but can you Biblically substantiate the calling part?"

Not everyone can be a pastor. Not everyone is "called" to do this. Was not Paul "called" to be an apostle?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Willing, yes, but can you Biblically substantiate the calling part? Garry Friesen in his book, Decision Making and the Will of God, says no. I realize this is off topic but your statment just seemed too glib and off the tongue. I know, it is a cliche that we all say but is it true? How do we know and recognize the calling? Where does it explicitly say in Scripture taht a pastor is called by God? Does God or churches call pastors?

Some years ago God called me to be the senior pastor an inner-city church. At the time, I was preparing to be a university professor and the call to the pastoral ministry, especially of an inner-city church, was not at all my idea of using my education, gifts and abilities to their best advantage. But there I was, eating dinner in a restaurant, and everything was normal until God very clearly told me to get up and walk down a particular street and look for a building which he described to me. I did as God told me and I found the building—and my life took a radically unexpected turn.

But God told me something else—that he wanted me to serve Him as he had called me to, but that the choice was mine, and that if I chose to yield to his calling, doing so would cost be dearly. I knew that Father knows best, so I accepted His terms and found myself behind the pulpit in an inner-city church rather than behind a lectern in a university classroom. And the cost to me was much greater than I had imagined it could be, both personally and financially, but especially pensonally.

However, God blessed me with a faithful and committed staff who knew that God had called me and they laid themselves at the feet of Jesus and together we saw miracle after miracle as God reached out and touched people’s lives through us and God caused the church to prosper in the face of enormous obstacles.

Had I chartered my own course on the basis of my academic accomplishments, talents, and abilities as I and others saw them, I NEVER would have even considered pastoring an inner-city church. But God called me that night in the restaurant, and there was no question of it, and I have never regretted saying yes to God and His will for my life.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Is a degree, of any sort, just a key which opens the door of opportunity? The good student will learn anywhere and under any circumstances, even under his own tutelage.

Sometimes I think we put too much emphasis on degrees in pastoral roles. I well remember the days when ordinary pastors sought after DD's just to be called doctor...they never gained an ounce of education to go with it, but they did get to wear a fancy red scarf....

Cheers,

Jim

PS&gt; Let it be clear that I am for all the education one can afford, but let's not make it the end instead of the means to achieve that end.

Jim, I generally agree. However, education without virtue is no virtue. There is education that is devilish and sensual. I propose that an education in higher criticism, if it causes a pastor to be a doubting liberal, is worse than no higher education at all. Least we forget, the tendency of higher education has been to move Bible-believing churches into liberalism. Some of the old Fundamentalist did not have the rudiments of classical education but they were students of the Word. Perhaps, we should remember “that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:26-31)”

Perhaps a serious understanding and rigorous application of the above passage would solve the degree problem. After all, it is sinful pride and vanity that cause men to seek out the degree mill diploma.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
"Willing, yes, but can you Biblically substantiate the calling part?"

Not everyone can be a pastor. Not everyone is "called" to do this. Was not Paul "called" to be an apostle?

Yes, but everyone is not the Apostle Paul. The Holy Spirit used Paul to write inspired Scripture. No pastor can claim that. When using Paul as an example, you are not using normative circumstances to prove your point. You are using an Apostle. There are no Apostles, contrary to certain claims, today.

I will not recapitulate his argument but you need to read and refute Garry Friesen in his book Decision Making and the Will of God[/b]. That was my challenge. Are you up to it? (BTW, do not conclude that I am necessarily in agreement with Friesen. I just want to see someone refute his argument.)

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Willing, yes, but can you Biblically substantiate the calling part? Garry Friesen in his book, Decision Making and the Will of God, says no. I realize this is off topic but your statment just seemed too glib and off the tongue. I know, it is a cliche that we all say but is it true? How do we know and recognize the calling? Where does it explicitly say in Scripture taht a pastor is called by God? Does God or churches call pastors?

Some years ago God called me to be the senior pastor an inner-city church. At the time, I was preparing to be a university professor and the call to the pastoral ministry, especially of an inner-city church, was not at all my idea of using my education, gifts and abilities to their best advantage. But there I was, eating dinner in a restaurant, and everything was normal until God very clearly told me to get up and walk down a particular street and look for a building which he described to me. I did as God told me and I found the building—and my life took a radically unexpected turn.

But God told me something else—that he wanted me to serve Him as he had called me to, but that the choice was mine, and that if I chose to yield to his calling, doing so would cost be dearly. I knew that Father knows best, so I accepted His terms and found myself behind the pulpit in an inner-city church rather than behind a lectern in a university classroom. And the cost to me was much greater than I had imagined it could be, both personally and financially, but especially pensonally.

However, God blessed me with a faithful and committed staff who knew that God had called me and they laid themselves at the feet of Jesus and together we saw miracle after miracle as God reached out and touched people’s lives through us and God caused the church to prosper in the face of enormous obstacles.

Had I chartered my own course on the basis of my academic accomplishments, talents, and abilities as I and others saw them, I NEVER would have even considered pastoring an inner-city church. But God called me that night in the restaurant, and there was no question of it, and I have never regretted saying yes to God and His will for my life.

</font>[/QUOTE]Sounds rather subjective to me. Do you have any Biblical support whatsoever for your message from God. Benny Hinn claims to talk with God every morning but he spews out a lot of slop and nonsense. Other guys, such Oral Roberts et. al., blame their decisions on God. There is, I believe, a relevant Scripture on something about a so-called prophet who had a prophecy that never materialized.

“But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18: 20-22)”