Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Willing, yes, but can you Biblically substantiate the calling part? Garry Friesen in his book, Decision Making and the Will of God, says no. I realize this is off topic but your statment just seemed too glib and off the tongue. I know, it is a cliche that we all say but is it true? How do we know and recognize the calling? Where does it explicitly say in Scripture taht a pastor is called by God? Does God or churches call pastors?

Some years ago God called me to be the senior pastor an inner-city church. At the time, I was preparing to be a university professor and the call to the pastoral ministry, especially of an inner-city church, was not at all my idea of using my education, gifts and abilities to their best advantage. But there I was, eating dinner in a restaurant, and everything was normal until God very clearly told me to get up and walk down a particular street and look for a building which he described to me. I did as God told me and I found the building—and my life took a radically unexpected turn.

But God told me something else—that he wanted me to serve Him as he had called me to, but that the choice was mine, and that if I chose to yield to his calling, doing so would cost be dearly. I knew that Father knows best, so I accepted His terms and found myself behind the pulpit in an inner-city church rather than behind a lectern in a university classroom. And the cost to me was much greater than I had imagined it could be, both personally and financially, but especially pensonally.

However, God blessed me with a faithful and committed staff who knew that God had called me and they laid themselves at the feet of Jesus and together we saw miracle after miracle as God reached out and touched people’s lives through us and God caused the church to prosper in the face of enormous obstacles.

Had I chartered my own course on the basis of my academic accomplishments, talents, and abilities as I and others saw them, I NEVER would have even considered pastoring an inner-city church. But God called me that night in the restaurant, and there was no question of it, and I have never regretted saying yes to God and His will for my life.

</font>[/QUOTE]Did God call you or did the church call you? If God called you, would you please explain how He called you? What method did he use? An audible voice? Circumstances? Impressions? Experiences? Peace? How did you know it was God?

How do you separate the calling of God from the own desires of your own heart? After all, the heart is wicked and sinful. It may convince a person that it is God Who is approving the individual's own desires.

I am very interested in how God told you to get up and walk down a street. Please elaborate.

[ November 20, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: paidagogos ]

 

[paidagogos]

Serious Thot: Suppose that God led me to obtain a degree mill diploma to enhance my ministry so that I could be better accepted and more effective for Him? How can anyone say that God wouldn't do this? Can we know God's mind? Can we think His thoughts for Him? Who can say God didn't? IMHO, this is on about the same level of those who attribute everything they do to God's leading. Who can argue with God? Methinks, we make our own foolish blunders and piously blame it on God. "What God hath not said . . . ." This is blasphemy!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Did God call you or did the church call you?

The building was empty—there was no church to call me, but only God.

If God called you, would you please explain how He called you? What method did he use? An audible voice? Circumstances? Impressions? Experiences? Peace? How did you know it was God?

I first became aware of God speaking to me while I was a 12-year-old agnostic. It was the first supernatural experience that I can recall. There was no audible voice, but there was a commanding presence that is indescribable. The first time that I became aware of God speaking to me as a Christian was about three weeks after I said a sinner’s prayer. During that three week period I continued to disbelieve in Jesus and publicly denied Him. However, I was walking down the sidewalk along the main street in the city where I was living and the commanding presence of God told me to turn around and talk to a man standing on the corner I had just walked past. However, I VERY much did NOT want to talk with this man and the situation was potentially very dangerous, so I continued walking. But with each step the physical act of walking became more and more difficult and I KNEW that I had to turn around and approach the man and speak to him. I did so and the immediate consequences were the most obviously supernatural events that I have ever experienced and the subsequent consequences were that many people accepted Christ as their savior, not from the hearing of the incident because I did not share it, but because on that day I became a new man in Christ, radically changed forever in the matter of a few seconds.

How do you separate the calling of God from the own desires of your own heart? After all, the heart is wicked and sinful. It may convince a person that it is God Who is approving the individual's own desires.

As I have already shared, I had NO desire to pastor a church, much less an inner-city church. And as I have shared in this post, although my heart that evening was wicked and sinful, God, by His grace, instantly gave me a new heart filled with love for the very people that I had detested for years.

I am very interested in how God told you to get up and walk down a street. Please elaborate.

I was eating my dinner on a very uneventful day when the commanding presence of God came to my table and told me to get up and walk down a particular street and look for a building which He described to me. I did as God told me and I found the building and the rest is a matter of history.

God is very much alive and the last chapter of the book of acts has yet to be written.

I am very much aware that some Christians never experience anything that is overtly supernatural, and that some others experience it much more often than I have. Why this is, I do not know. I do believe, however, that the pastorate is a vocation only for those whom God has called to it. Why did God call me, of all people, to that vocation—because it was His sovereign will to do so.

 

[Craigbythesea]

A bit of a summary of my stance on this matter:

I believe that only those who are called by God to be pastors of churches should become so employed. And I do not believe that degree mills are any kind of a substitute for the call of God.

 

[Jim1999]

Paidagogos:

The underlying part of my discussion is not making the education, whatever that may be, the end rather than the means. Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones was a medical doctor yet he was "called" to be pastor of Westminister Chapel.

Calling is a personal matter, and certainly there are as many different versions of a calling as there are people. Over the fifty odd years of ministry,I think I have just about heard them all, and give credibility, on my part, to them all.

Are mistakes made? Certainly. I made a very clear mistake on my calling to one church. It turned out to be my desire and it was the most miserable 8 months I ever spent at a church. They were as glad to see me go as was I to go. A total disaster. Yet, bith the church and I were certain that God was leading each of us.

As surely as Jonah followed a wrong path and God threw him overboard, so, if we are bent on obeying the Spirit of God, will He throw us overboard when we follow the wrong path.

Personality and circumstances must enter into the quation on calling. We cannot depend on mysticism, in my opinion; the nebulous voice, the dream, the image in the sky sort of thing.

The same is true of education. If God has called, God will also equip..I cannot afford an education is not an answer, If God calls, God will provide. This is not to say that non-seminary grads should not pastor. Else, we would never have seen the likes of Mr. Spurgeon and many other fine Christian leaders. On the other hand, the early missionaries and most ministers were well educated men, and later, women. Let us never spurn education, nor deny those who lack the formality. An educated man will show his salt, with or without a degree.

Are degree mills ethical? I think the ethical part is not on the part of the institution, but on the man who displays the diploma or degree. Just don't pretend what it is not. The only person you would be fooling would be yourself.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Benfranklin403]

Since the discussion has turned to the workings of God (Providence), I thought you might like to see what Lincoln had to see. I found this on the Internet and although I have not confirmed that he actually said that, the words seem to have his unique style, so he very well may have said it.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Because Lincoln rejected the idea of miracles and other supernatural interferences with the laws of nature, he emphasized a reliance on human effort in solving problems. In an 1856 speech in Kansas, he stated: "Friends, I agree with you in Providence; but I believe in the Providence of the most men, the largest purse, and the longest cannon." &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Dear Craigbythesea,
I enjoyed your testimony.thanks

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Now here's another question. If these Diploma Mills would take the Dr.,Masters, & Bachelors designation off of thier diploma's and just put Gratuate of Ministry,Bible studies,Theology,or music on thier diplomas would thye be more valid?It seems to me many of these schools attempt to offer a good education at the institute level but not the colege level.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Benfranklin403:
Since the discussion has turned to the workings of God (Providence), I thought you might like to see what Lincoln had to see. I found this on the Internet and although I have not confirmed that he actually said that, the words seem to have his unique style, so he very well may have said it.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Because Lincoln rejected the idea of miracles and other supernatural interferences with the laws of nature, he emphasized a reliance on human effort in solving problems. In an 1856 speech in Kansas, he stated: "Friends, I agree with you in Providence; but I believe in the Providence of the most men, the largest purse, and the longest cannon." &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

That rascal Abe doesn't carry much credibility in Dixie!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Now here's another question. If these Diploma Mills would take the Dr.,Masters, & Bachelors designation off of thier diploma's and just put Gratuate of Ministry,Bible studies,Theology,or music on thier diplomas would thye be more valid?It seems to me many of these schools attempt to offer a good education at the institute level but not the colege level.

For most, YES. Of course, their appeal is to pride and they might not attract as many students without the inflated degrees.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Paidagogos:

[snip]
Are degree mills ethical? I think the ethical part is not on the part of the institution, but on the man who displays the diploma or degree. Just don't pretend what it is not. The only person you would be fooling would be yourself.

Cheers,

Jim

Good observation! Although, I would attach some responsibility to those schools that blatantly appeal to pride and offer an easy way to a doctorate.

 

[Saint]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But of the three, which is the most important?

I have personally seen pastors fail and congregations destroyed because the pastor lacked each one of these three things. All three are essential, and there is no excuse for the absence of any of them.

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me.”

</font>[/QUOTE]There a lot of duds out there with enviable credentials. In fact, guys from certain supposedly highbrow seminaries are pretty much known for their dullness and mediocrity. On the other hand, some pretty successful and provocative sorts of guys have their degrees from less than wonderful institutions with regard to accreditation, reputation, etc. Do you know where such guys as James White, Kenneth Gentry, George Grant, and Thomas Ice earned their doctorates? </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[izzaksdad]

This forum/discussion may be dead, but I want to respond anyway- for those who still may be interested.

I would like to share a little insight on the seminary experience. To give you some personal background- I come from a family of educators. My dad, brother, sister in law, etc. are/were in the education field. My father has 2 Master's degrees- one from Furman Univ., one from Clemson Univ. My brother is pursuing his as well. So, graduate studies have been important in my life.

I have attended traditional seminary and distance education. While in the traditional seminary setting, I had the privilege of studying under giants of theology in our day,ie.- Dr. Danny Akin. Dr. Daniel Heimbach. Dr. Keith Eitel. Dr. Keith Harper. Dr. Paul Carlisle. Dr. Alvin Reid, etc. If you have been to seminary, these names you will readily recognize.

Due to circumstances in my life, I felt it was best for me and my family to finish my graduate degree thru distance education. I had a wife and a child on the way, and I was on staff at a mega-church-2500+ membership. So, I checked out distance education, and settled on ATS(Andersonville). I can say as one who has experienced both worlds of the seminary experience, that each has it's challenges. Obviously the distance education is not as personal, and contrary to popular belief, in some of these "unaccreditted schools", the work load is extremely heavy. ATS was very challenging, and it took me several years to complete Master's and Doctoral course work.

ATS will be too KJV/Independent for many. However, some SBC seminaries will be too liberal for many. In each, you must "chew up the watermelon and spit out the seed" (as Paige Patterson would instruct).

I say all of that to say this: I had no desire to just "have credentials". I would say, and I believe my wife and my congregation would say that I am an ethical man/Pastor. I wanted a solid, conservative Bible education, and thru both institutions I achieved that, I believe.

I want to challenge many of you who have responded to this discussion with a bit of intellectual/educational smugness. Always remember that it is not a school, a seminary, or a professor that makes a preacher/pastor. It is the power, wisdom, and strength of Almighty God.

Thanks,
Izaaksdad

 

[Craigbythesea]

Izaaksdad,

We obviously differ as to the quality of education that makes one academically qualified and competent to pastor a 21st century. Yes, there are VERY important ADDITIONAL qualifications such as clean hands and a pure heart, but with an empty head they are not of much use to either the pastor or his congregation. However, thank you for your contribution to this thread and welcome to the Baptist Board.

CBTS

 

[Jabbezzz]

Originally posted by izzaksdad:
I have attended traditional seminary and distance education...I can say as one who has experienced both worlds of the seminary experience, that each has it's challenges...contrary to popular belief, in some of these "unaccreditted schools", the work load is extremely heavy. ATS was very challenging, and it took me several years to complete Master's and Doctoral course work.

Thank you for your response, Izaaksdad!

While many unaccredited religious schools are indeed little more than degree mills, some offer substantive programs of study. I too have experienced both contexts. I have earned B,M,DMin degrees from RA/ATS institutions, and a PhD from a non-RA/ATS--yet denominationally approved--institution. The PhD was no piece of cake, but required substantive work, taking 4 years to complete.

 

[izzaksdad]

Thank you for the hospitality guys. CBTS, are you insinuating that I have an empty head?! Have you been talking to my wife!? Just kidding. Only trying to add some input to this unanswerable debate. By the way, I now pastor a 21st century church. We have been a leader in church growth and church health, and have been recognized nationally by Southern Seminary's Billy Graham School- Thom Rainer dean. So, while the degree may be tarnished in some people's eyes, the work of the ministry and Kingdom Growth is expanding in our area!

Bless you guys,

Izaaksdad

 

[Craigbythesea]

CBTS, are you insinuating that I have an empty head?!

No, not at all! I respect you for the education that you do have and your commitment to our Savior that caused you persevere until you obtained the education.

By the way, I now pastor a 21st century church. We have been a leader in church growth and church health, and have been recognized nationally by Southern Seminary's Billy Graham School- Thom Rainer dean. So, while the degree may be tarnished in some people's eyes, the work of the ministry and Kingdom Growth is expanding in our area!

Thank you for sharing this with us so that we can rejoice with you! Hang in there!

 

[Benfranklin403]

Back to the theme of this thread. I think that diploma mills are entirely acceptable - as long as those with a degree from a diploma mill always state in their resume that it is from a diploma mill. Something like this:

John Doe, Ph.D., L.L.D., B.S., all from Bayou University, the South's foremost diploma mill.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I find this post to be highly offensive!!!!!

My two-year-old grandson EARNED those degrees from that school!!!! How dare you attack my grandson and his education? Who do you think you are, some arrogant snob?!!!!!!!!!

 

[cobbk2001]

OK, so just out of curiousity, are you better going to an accredited (TRACS) cheap school, that isn't even Baptist, (Global University - AOG), or something cost-comparable like Andersonville? I mean, if it is just about 'getting an accredited degree cheap' - wouldn't that be better?

I am being serious here as I am a bi-vocation unpaid associate pastor with full family of 5. I want the education, but am on a level of broke you wouldn't believe (disabled).

Thanks.