Are Degree Mills Ethical?

[Plain Old Bill]

If you are a Baptist and only have those two choices go to Andersonville.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I am being serious here as I am a bi-vocation unpaid associate pastor with full family of 5. I want the education, but am on a level of broke you wouldn't believe (disabled).

I learned many years ago as the pastor of an inner-city church that God is a gentleman and that what He orders, He pays for. God is not broke, and neither is any Christian who is faithfully serving Him. We may suffer financial trials, even VERY severe financial trials, but these trials do not in any way hinder God from providing every financial need—even for a VERY expensive education if that is what God wants for you. Find out first if God wants for you to go to school. If He does, find out which school He wants you to go to, and trust Him to pay for it—and He will.

 

[dianetavegia]

If it's God's will, it's God's bill.

 

[Benfranklin403]

>>>>If it's God's will, it's God's bill.<<<<<<

"I also believe in Providence. But I believe in the Providence of the most men, the largest purse and the longest cannon"

--- A. Lincoln

 

[cobbk2001]

God has, in fact, gifted me with some extra money to go to school, or I would not even be able to consider it. But he didn't give me enough to go Ivey Leauge either

So I am trying to find what others would consider the best (and cheapest) method to a quality degree in light of this current thread.

In other words, I guess I am asking, "To be "above reproach" is accreditation to be sought at all costs" even if the education is perhaps substandard or outside one's chosen denomination?"

 

[cobbk2001]

For clarification, I ask this as I know some consider ANY un-accredited degree as coming from a 'mill', even though the legal definitions I have seen add "little or in-substantial coursework" to the definition.

 

[Dr. Bob]

That is why some recommend Trinity (Newburgh, IN) which has a track record of diligent course work and now candidate status for real accreditation.

But not "cheap".

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
That is why some recommend Trinity (Newburgh, IN) which has a track record of diligent course work and now candidate status for real accreditation.

But not "cheap".

And of course some others would recommend that you stay clear of Trinity (Newburgh, IN) for the reasons (substandard academics) mentioned in previous posts in this thread.

 

[Dale]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
That is why some recommend Trinity (Newburgh, IN) which has a track record of diligent course work and now candidate status for real accreditation.

But not "cheap".

And of course some others would recommend that you stay clear of Trinity (Newburgh, IN) for the reasons (substandard academics) mentioned in previous posts in this thread.

</font>[/QUOTE]My dad got a masters from Trinity (after Tennesee Temple) and then my brother got his bachelors from there as well.
They both seemed to be happy with the academic level there.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

What is the academic rigor at Tennesee Temple?

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
That is why some recommend Trinity (Newburgh, IN) which has a track record of diligent course work and now candidate status for real accreditation.

But not "cheap".

===


I took three TTS courses in the PhD in Biblical Studies before I understood accreditation.

IMO those PhD courses were "taught" at about MDiv level. In fact in those several courses those in the master's programs were using the same cassette tapes and textbooks those in the PhD were using! For example, for Systematic Theology I used Grudems which clearly was intended for survey courses not for doctoral work.

Except for one prof, it was my impression that A's were easily earned.

The main reason that I would not recommend TTS is that IMO for years TTS misrepresented its accreditation and its quality. I will give specifics if asked.

It now is my understanding that a doc in Biblical studies, not the PhD or ThD, is offered by TTS without any language reqs. I think that's too bad.

I do not mean to suggest that the TTS students or faculty are not sincere.

 

[Broadus]

A few years ago, a pastor-friend, who had received his MDiv from NOBTS, started a PhD at TTS. After examining the first course, he sent it back and withdrew, saying the requirements for his MDiv courses were higher.

I do not know what TTS requires now and if there has been substantial improvement.

Bill

 

[UZThD]

Originally posted by Broadus:
I do not know what TTS requires now and if there has been substantial improvement.

===

Assuming TTS has made substantial improvement over what curriculum was in place in 2001, my last course there, then follows the question:

how it can be ethical to become rigorous in doc programs only when required to do so in order to meet accreditational expectations???

IMO, and I'm sure in yours, it is the Subject which mostly requires from us rigor, not the accreditor ; we do our best, giving our all, not for the NCA but for God!

Bill G.

 

[Broadus]

Originally posted by UZThD:

Originally posted by Broadus:
I do not know what TTS requires now and if there has been substantial improvement.

===

Assuming TTS has made substantial improvement over what curriculum was in place in 2001, my last course there, then follows the question:

how it can be ethical to become rigorous in doc programs only when required to do so in order to meet accreditational expectations???

IMO, and I'm sure in yours, it is the Subject which mostly requires from us rigor, not the accreditor ; we do our best, giving our all, not for the NCA but for God!

Bill G.

Agreed.

I'm not convinced that substantial improvement has been made, though. In reviewing TTS's web site, it seems that the degree nomenclature has changed. No longer (unless I'm missing something) is a PhD or ThD to be earned. The DMin is still offered, but the Doctor of Arts (with concentrations in either Biblical Studies, Biblical Counseling, and Theology) is now offered in place of the PhD. TTS claims that the DA is "the doctorate of choice for those who have a desire to teach at the college or seminary level, or to pursue a career in administration."

Quite frankly, I don't see their DA degree being accepted by many theological institutions in place of the PhD. Their DA's require "Relevant Master's Degree of at Least 32 Credits" as pre-requisite. A PhD or ThD, however, typically requires at least an MDiv (90-105 hours), with some requiring a ThM. Interestingly enough, at least to me, their DMin requires at least an 88-hour MDiv (or equivalency), while the more academic DA requires only a 32-hour MA. Perhaps that is because an MA is typically built upon a BA of that field, while an MDiv does not require the undergrad degree to be in biblical or theological fields.

For a cursory look at the TTS doctorates, see http://www.trinitysem.edu/visitors/doctordegrees.html . BTW, TTS also offer the Doctor of Religious Studies.

The point which I'm trying to make is that TTS has changed their offerings in order to gain accreditation, it seems. They no longer offer the more widely accepted and expected PhD or ThD, but have instead substituted the DA. The DA, of course, is an accepted degree (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Arts ) for many disciplines, especially for those teaching in higher education. Nevertheless, it seems that TTS's DA with a concentration in biblical studies can be obtained without work in biblical languages.

The above is simply my observation, and I will be glad to be corrected if I've misrepresented TTS's situation.

Bill

[ January 17, 2005, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Broadus ]

 

[Rhetorician]

Originally posted by Jabbezzz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Fortunately, God does not call upon us to make non-viable choices.

But many a good pastor invested his entire life in the ministry WITHOUT a good education. This is especially true in the more rural areas of the country. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Rhetorician]

But, how much better could that pastor have been with some education?

 

[Taxman]

Luther Rice Seminary has a legitimate campus, daily classes with hundreds in class, is on candidate status with SACS and it looks very favorable. It's taken a lot of abuse, but the preachers coming out of it have a real education. That's even more than the "School of the Prophets" with President Elijah had going for it.

 

[Nord]

LRS is a well respected alternative education institution. They also of course are accredited by TRACS (an agency recognized by Us DoE/CHEA). Did not know about SACs though. They were rumored on degreeinfo.com to be doing this some time ago but so not remember that it came about.

LRS has a virtual whose who of Southern Baptists as graduates.

Nord

 

[Broadus]

A friend is doing his DMin at LRS and told me a couple of weeks ago that the seminary had brought a man on board (from Liberty, I think) who had led several institutions to achieve RA. I think the SACS pursuit is more substantial and realistic this time.

Bill