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Are denominations Biblical?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
>But, Paul preached the true gospel of Jesus.....he forsook the teachings of the Jews.
So the 11 Apostles were false teachers and we should ignore their writings or at least consider Paul's writings as correcting the Apostles?
Why did Paul go to the Temple to offer a sacrifice and thus get himself arrested?
So the 11 Apostles were false teachers and we should ignore their writings or at least consider Paul's writings as correcting the Apostles?
Why did Paul go to the Temple to offer a sacrifice and thus get himself arrested?
TaliOrlando said:
I agree with your sentiments here. The only evidence I can think of for denominations in scripture is the fact that the Corinthian church was divided by people saying, "I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. I am of Cephas" and "I am of Christ."
Sure, we should all say, "I am of Christ." But even that can be an unbiblical division if you are saying "I am of Christ, and you are not." to your brethren.
One of the major problems underlying denominationalism is that denominations are based on structures that have no basis in scripture. If we look for Biblical basis in scripture for church organizations, we see that the word 'church' is used to the believers in a particular city. 'Churches' plural is used to refer to churches in a region larger than a city. We don't see the 'church' singular of a nation or region in scripture.
We see elders on a city level. There were the elders in Jerusalem, the elders of the church in Ephesus. Paul told Titus to appoint elders in every city. That goes back to the Old Testament where one city had one set of elders.
What does denominationalism give us? If the apostles followed denominationalism, then there would have been a Paul franchise of church in Corinth, and a Peter franchise, and an Apollos franchise. Paul would have gone back to Antioch to head up the denominational HQ of his franchise, and Apollos could have had his HQ in Ephesus or Corinth. Peter could have set his HQ for his franchise up in Jerusalem. Then the 'I am of Christ' denomination could have set itself up in Corinth and tried to convince everyone that it was THE church of Christ. These churches would have isolated their church government and fellowship, unless some big speaker came to town when they could have had some kind of joint even, with everyone except the people who called themselves the 'church of Christ.'
But that's not what we see. Paul went to Corinth and through him, God started the church there. Then, Apollos and Cephas went there to strengthen the work, and they added to the work there. Some of the people wrongly wanted to divide into factions over which minister they liked best.
In the Bible we see the concept of the church in the city. There is also the church in the house. And there is something more universal, the church, referring to all saints live and asleep in Christ wherever they are in creation. These are the three 'levels of church.' There is no mention of a denominational HQ. Since these things are not in the Bible, why would we think God gives them any spiritual authority to do anything? Christ founded the church as described in scripture, not sthousands of denominations.
The heirarchical leadership system we see in churches and denominations today further exacerbates the whole problem. In the Bible, we see that the apostles appointed _elders_ to pastor and be 'bishops' over the church. One city church had a group of elders. The elders were also supposed to watch out for one another, if one turned out to be a wolf, to protect the flock from that person. What happens nowadays? In many denominations, each church has one lead 'senior pastor'. If he turns out to be a wolf, there aren't other 'co-equal' elders to police him, which leads to all kinds of problems. Plus, a lot of 'pastors' don't even fit the Biblical qualifications for elder. The system of sending kids off to Bible college doesn't match with the system for appointing elders in scripture either.
The one-man pastorate further hinders the issue of denominationalism. In the early church, if a believer had a gift of teaching, he was supposed to use it to edify the church, and there was a venue for that. If someone was gifted to prophecy, he was supposed to use the gift to edify the body. Scripture actually commands that such gifts be used to edify the body. More than one person would teach, prophesy, sing, etc. in church. (I Cor. 14, esp. v. 26, Heb. 10:24-25.)
Nowadays, we have the one man pastorate. One man does much of the teaching, and becomes the focus for one tiny congregation. If there is unity across the churches in a city, then that dillutes his power, and it just runs contrary to the whole modern church model.
ajg1959 said:
People who teach this, in my experience, invariable find problems with Paul's teachings and actions that they try to explain away. They take a piece of Paul's doctrines and practices, and discount the rest as Paul buckling under pressure.
I don't know your particular take on this. But some of the people who think only Paul had it right discount the importance of water baptism.
Peter taught people to be baptized. Paul, while preaching the Gospel by means of his testimony, tells of Ananias telling him to arise and wash away his sins, calling upon the name of the Lord.
Another area where people who think Paul was the only one who had it right disagree with Paul's actions was when he went into the temple agreeing to pay certain men's vows, partly to prove that he was not opposed to Jewish Christians circumcising their baby boys.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Is velcro Biblical?
No, velcro is NOT Biblical.
Nevertheless, I use velcro to hold my shoes on my feet.
Read my trailer verse.
No, velcro is NOT Biblical.
Nevertheless, I use velcro to hold my shoes on my feet.
Read my trailer verse.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Back in 1972 I went to an Assembly of God (AoG) worship meeting. The kept shouting "Glory to God!! Praise be to Jesus!!"
So I thought I'd check the Bible and see if something we can do would give Glory to God. I can't seem to find the translation I had with me at the time, but I found this verse and this verse alone says something we can do DOES give Glory to God. That thing is to accept people into the Church.
So I accept 7th Day Adventists (SDAs),
Lutherans,
Methodists
AoG
selected Baptists
etc.
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So I thought I'd check the Bible and see if something we can do would give Glory to God. I can't seem to find the translation I had with me at the time, but I found this verse and this verse alone says something we can do DOES give Glory to God. That thing is to accept people into the Church.
So I accept 7th Day Adventists (SDAs),
Lutherans,
Methodists
AoG
selected Baptists
etc.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Still some people shying away from the Bible "details" on this question that Bill asks - let's "dig in".
the Christians were NOT "another religion" rather they were the SAME religion in fact "a sect of the Jews" - same bible same God and they were even being managed by the "Jerusalem council" of Christian Jews.
Paul stands up and TEACHES in the Synagogues in Acts 13 and Acts 17 and IS WELCOMED there because "the Messiah" is in fact a JEWISH concept and "Christ" as it turns out is just the Greek expression for that SAME thing!.
Today it has EVOLVED to two religions but in the NT age it looked A LOT like our "Christian Denomination" using the SAME bible worshipping the SAME God and going to the SAME worship services (in many cases).
Now if you want the Bible take on those two denominations -- go to Acts 21. It is a case of Paul arguing that HE IS NOT in violation of ANY of the OT laws or practices!!
"details" time to get comfortable with scripture on this point.
in Christ,
Bob
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
TCGreek said:
Amen, Brother TCGreek -- Preach it! :thumbs:
I might even accept some conversation with Reformed Baptists
Darron Steele
New Member
TCGreek said:
Ed Edwards said:
Amen, amen, amen.TCGreek said:
After all, Matthew 16:15-8 teaches that Christ would only build one church -- and that He would build it. Per Acts 2:47, the Lord adds to the church. Therefore, Christ determines the composition of His church -- we do not.
We are not in a position to `subtract' any whom the Lord has added. When the Lord adds someone, s/he is in the church, period. We ought to honor the Lord by treating His church as actually His.
Denominations divide unity into segments of different doctrinal standards. You choose a selective set of beliefs that best fit your personal needs, or whatever personally satisfies you, more or less.
It shouldn't be like that.
The Bible wasn't written so that church leaders could decide a certain amount of selective scriptures to back up their doctrinal statements, while skipping along and leaving out the rest of the Bible.
The most significant damage that constitutes from denominations is one element of separation, which is a construction of disembodiment and leads to a disunited church. I'm not referring to the congregation of the church, but the body of Christ, which ultimately is the one that matters.
God's people aren't limited to a branch of one particular denomination. If you're mindset is similar to thinking as such, I would suggest you revise scripture.
As for myself, I go an Assemblies of God church, which would be classified as Pentecostal. Also, my girlfriend is Baptist. We first and foremostly consider ourselves followers of Christ before any other label.
I refuse to allow any denominational standard separate me from my brothers and sisters in Christ that may belong to another church. They're still a member of the body of Christ - the one and only church built on a strong foundation.
It shouldn't be like that.
The Bible wasn't written so that church leaders could decide a certain amount of selective scriptures to back up their doctrinal statements, while skipping along and leaving out the rest of the Bible.
The most significant damage that constitutes from denominations is one element of separation, which is a construction of disembodiment and leads to a disunited church. I'm not referring to the congregation of the church, but the body of Christ, which ultimately is the one that matters.
God's people aren't limited to a branch of one particular denomination. If you're mindset is similar to thinking as such, I would suggest you revise scripture.
As for myself, I go an Assemblies of God church, which would be classified as Pentecostal. Also, my girlfriend is Baptist. We first and foremostly consider ourselves followers of Christ before any other label.
I refuse to allow any denominational standard separate me from my brothers and sisters in Christ that may belong to another church. They're still a member of the body of Christ - the one and only church built on a strong foundation.
GrapeApe said:
Suppose, you go to a Baptist church and they preach that speaking in tongues is un biblical, then they serve Communion, but you may not participate because you and your girlfriend are not members of that local church; then later one of the deacons tell you that your girlfriend must wear a dress next time, and you have to shave your beard.
Would this "standards" separate you from your brothers and sisters in Christ?
Mind you, there are churches out there that believe the doctrines I mentioned above.
As for myself, yes, I can fellowship with you as a brother in Christ. Should you attended our church, I would hesitate in allowing you to teach a Sunday School class as you have (Pentecostal) doctrines that differ from what (we believe) the Bible teaches.
But as I stated before, we can still fellowship otherwise
Salty
PS if you would like to visit the Baptist section in Heaven, just let me know, and I will escort you in as my guest:laugh:
This wont make make most of you happy, but after some research and prayer, I believe that in the world that we live in, that God would not want us to worship or join in with churches that hold to unbiblical doctrines.
If we did, we would be "unequally yoked"
So for me, it is biblical to be a Baptist since I believe that Baptists hold closer to the doctrines taught in the Bible. A host of different denominations may not be what God intended, but I certainly dont think He would approve of me having spiritual communion with apostate doctrines.
AJ
If we did, we would be "unequally yoked"
So for me, it is biblical to be a Baptist since I believe that Baptists hold closer to the doctrines taught in the Bible. A host of different denominations may not be what God intended, but I certainly dont think He would approve of me having spiritual communion with apostate doctrines.
AJ
Quite typical of a denominational answer.LeBuick said:
Just to remind everyone Baptists, Methodists Charismatics etc, it is Christ that a Christian follows and His church consists of not a brick denominational building but of Saints who are saved by His Grace .... this and this alone unites and until we realise this and forget the ''' We follow after John...''' that the Bible warns us so much against.
The Church is not an organisation but an organism made up of saved souls won for Christ. Denominations are organisations!
Quote the verse please that says this?
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SALTCITYBAPTIST said:
I would first question the biblical teachings of that church. Speaking in tongues is in the Bible, therefore making it biblical. If they were talking about the usage of speaking in tongues, that's something completely different. But saying speaking in tongues is unbiblical just reflects their own teachings.
Asking and commanding are two different notions. Being involved in a ministry where you're regularly seen by the congregation, I think it is appropriate to dress decent. However, you shouldn't be judged by external appearance.
As you described, they certainly wouldn't be acknowledging me as such. They would be the ones rejecting me.
I don't want anything to do with people who hold their denomination higher than their own faith in Christ.
Your denomination isn't getting you to heaven.
I believe God's Word, not man-made garbage.
Assuming that's a joke, I'll chuckle along with you.
If not, sorry to disappoint you, but such a section won't exist. Heaven isn't divided against itself.
Hebron said:
The Baptist doctrine is in line with scripture......that is why I am Baptist, nothing more, nothing less. And my particular church holds more closely to the doctrine of the Bible than the other Baptist churches that I have visited in my town, thats why I go there.
I dont hold to the doctrine of the "Universal Church". I believe that the Bible speaks directly to the church that I, or you are a member of at the time. When I move to another state, and join another church, then I am no longer a member of the church that I left. It is my duty as a christian to attrend a church that is doctrinally correct. And the biblical commands regarding my relationship with the church are solely centered on the church that I attend....they have nothing to do with the church down the street or in Indonesia.
I do believe that all of us who are saved are "brothers and sisters in Christ" but we are not all members of the same church.
To say that I am a member of the same church as my Church of Christ cousins would mean that I hold to the doctrine of salvation thru baptism....which I dont.
AJ