Are denominations Biblical?

[DHK]

DHK,

You have consistently said that God church is not a "universal" church in any sense, and that "church" only refers to local gathered assemblies.

Could you please share with us all exactly and specifically which local gathered assembly God is adressing in this passage of scripture?



Thanks,

Mike

"18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darknes and tempest,

19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.

20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned."

21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling."

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

One of the key words in the Book of Hebrews (where these verses are taken from) is "better than." Paul is contrasting this NT dispensation to the OT dispensation that was under the law. It is better than the law. It is better than what they had under Moses.
Think about it. He was addressing "Hebrews." Thus the title of the book. Some of those "Hebrews" were thinking of going back into Judaism, and thus the comparison throughout the book of why the NT covenant is better than the OT covenant. What is he saying here.

1. Israel came to a mountain that burned with fire, and yet they couldn't touch it. (Neither could these in a NT dispensation).
2. At Mount Sinai, a trumpet was sounded; a voice was heard; but the words they could not understand.
3. The laws at Mount Sinai were harsh, insurmountable and God was unapproachable. If anyone would but touch the mountain he would die. (vs.20)
4. Even God's prophet, Moses, was afraid of approaching God.

BUT: YOU (believers in Christ) have come to Mount Zion (not the physical Zion of Jerusalem, but the spiritual--heaven---the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. This is a picutre of heaven. Paul has turned his attention to the believers' Zion which is heaven.
In the OT, the nation of Israel gathered as an assembly]/b] at Mount Sinai.
On this side of the cross, all believers will gather as an assembly in heaven, the only place where it is possible to do so.

to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--Where will this great assembly be? It will be in the only place that all believers can assemble together, and that is in heaven--where the angels are (vs.22), where we are registered in heaven, where the God, the Judge of all is. All believers will be assembled as an assembly in heaven. The word "church" means assembly. It has no other meaning in the NT.

The church (assembly) on this earth is always local, always means assembly, and still means assembly even as it is translated assembly here. It still means assembly here, as we will be gathered together as one assembly in heaven. This is a heavenly scene.
There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction in terms.

 

[DHK]

Darron,

I thought my post was appropiately worded, considering the point I was trying to make. That being the utter ridiculousness of denying that Christs "church" here on earth consists...in it primary sense...of all the born again people worldwide.

The Universal Church

To reduce Gods glorious church down to only gathered assemblies betrays a spirit of sectariansim and denominationalism that is a great detrimant to the body of Christ....



The problem you refer to would actually be DHK's repeated insults directed towards me. Impuning my character. Accusing me of being dishonest. Accusing me of deliberate misrepresentation. Saying I have no honor. No integrity.

Others might report him. I turn the other cheek.

God bless,

Mike

I have told you the truth Mike. I have asked you questions that to this day you have not been able to answer, but instead had dodged and iferred that I have lied, whereas you have been completely dishonest.

Concerning the passage you just quoted. It was from 1Cor.3.
Why take it our of context? That is typical.
The context is Paul writing to the believers at the church in Corinth addressing them as a carnal church, and the problems that they were having. He was not addressing any nebulous so-called, non-existent univiersal church. That is a man-made doctrine unknown in the Scriptures. The people at Corinth knew that these words in chapter three were addressed to them. It was a letter addressed to them. It was not addressed to "all believers in the world." It was addressed to them, the Corinthians. Why do you take it out of its historical context?

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

You failed in your attempt to adequatly prove how God can refer to His "Church" as being all whos name are "registered in heaven", (the universal church...all the christians worldwide), yet actually mean christians who are in a gathered assembly.

Here is an excerpt from a good commentary...Matthew Henry's...regarding this topic.

From the passage in question, from Hebrews 12...

"1. Into heavenly places. (1.) Unto the city of the living God. God has taken up his gracious residence in the gospel church, which on that account is an emblem of heaven. There his people may find him ruling, guiding, sanctifying, and comforting them; there he speaks to them by the gospel ministry; there they speak to him by prayer, and he hears them; there he trains them up for heaven, and gives them the earnest of their inheritance.

(2.) To the heavenly Jerusalem as born and bred there, as free denizens there. Here believers have clearer views of heaven, plainer evidences for heaven, and a greater meetness and more heavenly temper of soul. 2. To a heavenly society. (1.) To an innumerable company of angels, who are of the same family with the saints, under the same head, and in a great measure employed in the same work, ministering to believers for their good, keeping them in all their ways, and pitching their tents about them. These for number are innumerable, and for order and union are a company, and a glorious one. And those who by faith are joined to the gospel church are joined to the angels, and shall at length be like them, and equal with them.

(2.) To the general assembly and church of the first-born, that are written in heaven, that is, to the universal church, however dispersed. By faith we come to them, have communion with them in the same head, by the same Spirit, and in the same blessed hope, and walk in the same way of holiness, grappling with the same spiritual enemies, and hasting to the same rest, victory, and glorious triumph. Here will be the general assembly of the first-born, the saints of former and earlier times, who saw the promises of the gospel state, but received them not, as well as those who first received them under the gospel, and were regenerated thereby, and so were the first-born, and the first-fruits of the gospel church; and thereby, as the first-born, advanced to greater honours and privileges than the rest of the world. Indeed all the children of God are heirs, and every one has the privileges of the first-born."

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=heb&chapter=012

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[DHK]

DHK,

You failed in your attempt to adequatly prove how God can refer to His "Church" as being all whos name are "registered in heaven", (the universal church...all the christians worldwide), yet actually mean christians who are in a gathered assembly.

Here is an excerpt from a good commentary...Matthew Henry's...regarding this topic.

From the passage in question, from Hebrews 12...



http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=heb&chapter=012

Grace and peace,

Mike

Matthew Henry did a convenient job of allegorizing that entire portion of Scripture. I do not subscribe to the allegorical method if interpreting the Scriptures. It is totally unwarranted here, and does not fit the context. There is a parallel to be sure. There is a contrast between two assemblies: the OT assembly (Israel) that assembled in the wilderness, and the NT assembly of believers that will assembly in heaven. The language in the passage is replete with heavenly phrasese--an innumerable company of angels, the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem, etc. These are not earthly terms. It is referring to an assembly gathered in heaven, the only possible place where a universal assembly can gather.

I do not subscribe to MH's allegorical method of interpretation, and if you want a duel of commentaries I can give you just as many commentaries that give a similar view as I have stated above.