Are False Prophets Saved? And a Consideration that Charismatic Gifts are Counterfeit

[Steven Yeadon]

I raise some theological questions that bother me:

1. Can someone who is a false prophet have salvation?

2. Can the spirit of the antichrist be at work in Believers in order to make them into false prophets?

3. Could New Testament prophets instead of being liars, mentally ill, or delusional in fact have a counterfeit set of gifts from the Enemy when they receive tongues and prophecy? If this is so, can they still be Believers given our answers in questions 1 and 2?

I am a loss as to how to answer questions 1 and 2.

For question 3 my own thesis in need of biblical scrutiny is simple: that the spirit that comes upon people "baptized by the holy spirit" who manifest gifts that appear supernatural is in fact a spirit of the antichrist from the Enemy. My interaction with charismatic prophets for years leads me to believe that their "baptism by the Holy Spirit" was in fact efficacious in that it produced two new "gifts" that they had not had before: charismatic style tongues and prophecy. I received the so called gift of tongues myself when I received my "baptism by the holy spirit," and I even grew in faith to the level I could sing in tongues after a couple of years. However, I know this so called "gift" to now be unbiblical, pride inducing, and of the Enemy as it did seem clearly unnatural and out of body. I have also received powerful prophecies from charismatic prophets that cut me down to the heart by people that did not know me, or I received prophecies of what was really in store for me in the near future. However, these prophecies also produced bad fruit in the end in my own life. As to the accuracy of some charismatic prophecies, I believe this can be explained by Acts 16:16-18 as the Enemy is not beyond at least some knowledge of the future.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I raise some theological questions that bother me:

1. Can someone who is a false prophet have salvation?

This will depend on how you define a false prophet, and what they are prophesying about. We also need to bear in mind that it is God who judges such things, not us. I make a point of never using the H word on this forum or elsewhere. God, not you nor I, will decide what is heresy and what isn't. However, we should all bear in mind James 3:1 which should be a sobering word for all of us on this forum.

However, have a browse through 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. There is no foundation other than that of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore any prophecy or preaching that denies His words (all the Bible, not just the red letters!), His deity, propitiatory death upon the cross, His resurrection, ascension and His future physical return in glory, is very serious. What we want to do is to build upon that foundation of Christ with good teaching, (gold, silver, precious stones) and not with error (wood, hay, straw). I doubt that any of us have all our theological ducks in a row, so some of our work will be 'burned up' but that does not mean that we are all lost if our foundation is Christ.

2. Can the spirit of the antichrist be at work in Believers in order to make them into false prophets?

If someone is a Believer (ie. born again, saved), then the evil one cannot touch him (1 John 5:18), though certainly Satan is able to put wrong thoughts into our minds and tempt us to do foolish things (1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Corinthians 2:11; Ephesians 6:11) . However, I think it is pride which more often causes believers to get involved with false teaching. They want to gain respect, and have people think they're clever. I remember as a very young Christian, believing that I should speak in the church and I bullied the leadership into letting me do so. I made a fool of myself, harmed the cause of Christ, and the memory of it makes me wince to this day. I can't blame this on the devil; it was my own foolish pride that led me into error. There's a line from a Bob Dylan song that may be helpful: "I'll know my song well before I start singing" (cf. 1 Timothy 3:6).

3. Could New Testament prophets instead of being liars, mentally ill, or delusional in fact have a counterfeit set of gifts from the Enemy when they receive tongues and prophecy? If this is so, can they still be Believers given our answers in questions 1 and 2?

I think rather that 'tongues' is something that can be learned, or maybe it is an emotional response, and that false prophecy, as given by believers is something that pops into their heads. I don't think a believer can receive a counterfeit set of gifts from Satan.

Steven, my advice to you is to find yourself a good, non-Charismatic, Bible-believing church and settle down for a while under its ministry. Then, after a while, think if God is leading you to some form of service. It may be that He has a work for you with folk suffering from mental illness or charismatic delusions. But that is for the future. Get the word in your mind and in your heart first.

 

[JonC]

To your first question: The church has never been commanded to make such determinations, so I think it logical to hold it is not up to the individual believer as well. But the church has been commanded to expel wicked people and false teachers in such a way to maintain the integrity and holiness of the congregation. And the unrepentant are to be “given over to Satan”, expelled, in hopes that such action will result in a return.

Can true believers make false statements and false claims? Yes. Can they believe, with all of their mental capacity that these false statements are true? Yes. Should the church (or Christians) tolerate such false doctrine because the one is deemed to be a believer and is sincere in the doctrine? Absolutely not. If a man teaches false doctrine then that man should be removed – not in hate but in love and in the hope that while protecting the Body the one removed will come to know his error.

To your second question: No. People can be deceived, and even Christians can be misled. But at the core it is not a spirit of anti-Christ but one of self-righteousness. False doctrine typically occurs when interpretation is bent on personal desire. We have a tendency to look outwardly for the cause of our sin, but what can be found outside is only the temptation. Our sin comes from within ourselves

 

[Jope]

Martin Luther believed in prophecy and even had prophetic dream(s).

Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud have made remarkable progress in making dream interpretation a science. The former was a Christian, came from a family of Christian ministers, and was the son of a pastor. The latter was Jewish.

 

[Jope]

False prophets having salvation? Hmm. A difficult topic indeed.

A study into Balaam would be a good one.

 

[Jope]

Also interesting to note, about the "antichrist", is Cain. Cain was firstborn, and the duty of priesthood was thus specially designated to him (Numbers 3:12-13; etc.).

"Before the appointment of Levi’s descendants, 'the first-born of every family, the fathers, the princes, and the kings, were priests. Thus Cain and Abel, Noah, Abraham, Melchisedec, Job, Isaac, Jacob, offered themselves their own sacrifices' (article 'Priests,' Encylopedia R. Knowledge)" - George Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, Prop. 156, Obs. 5.

Jude claims that Cain was initially saved (Jude 11). Yea, Cain's mother thought that Cain might be the redeemer, as God had promised to them (Gen. 4:1).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Oops I must note that I am almost a cessationist, I am researching the gifts of healing and miracles as those are typically evangelistic. As such my question 1 assumed New Testament prophets were not biblical prophets. I do not mind continuationist arguments in this thread of course.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven, my advice to you is to find yourself a good, non-Charismatic, Bible-believing church and settle down for a while under its ministry. Then, after a while, think if God is leading you to some form of service. It may be that He has a work for you with folk suffering from mental illness or charismatic delusions. But that is for the future. Get the word in your mind and in your heart first.

Thank you very much. I've been back to being a southern baptist for a year after a time in charismatic churches. My current church is fairly uncharismatic and is a southern baptist one I have a history with, but it is continuationist in some of its teachings. I am thinking about service, but I have a long way to grow before then in "junior" positions. By that I mean serving under ministry leaders as a helper in order to become equipped for ministry myself. Thank you as well for the advice about working with those with charismatic delusions and those with mental illness to help them. I do interact with mentally ill people on average twice a month including some mentally ill friends, and I am evangelistic in that context. But I'll see if I should be doing any more besides this.

 

[Yeshua1]

I raise some theological questions that bother me:

1. Can someone who is a false prophet have salvation?

2. Can the spirit of the antichrist be at work in Believers in order to make them into false prophets?

3. Could New Testament prophets instead of being liars, mentally ill, or delusional in fact have a counterfeit set of gifts from the Enemy when they receive tongues and prophecy? If this is so, can they still be Believers given our answers in questions 1 and 2?

I am a loss as to how to answer questions 1 and 2.

For question 3 my own thesis in need of biblical scrutiny is simple: that the spirit that comes upon people "baptized by the holy spirit" who manifest gifts that appear supernatural is in fact a spirit of the antichrist from the Enemy. My interaction with charismatic prophets for years leads me to believe that their "baptism by the Holy Spirit" was in fact efficacious in that it produced two new "gifts" that they had not had before: charismatic style tongues and prophecy. I received the so called gift of tongues myself when I received my "baptism by the holy spirit," and I even grew in faith to the level I could sing in tongues after a couple of years. However, I know this so called "gift" to now be unbiblical, pride inducing, and of the Enemy as it did seem clearly unnatural and out of body. I have also received powerful prophecies from charismatic prophets that cut me down to the heart by people that did not know me, or I received prophecies of what was really in store for me in the near future. However, these prophecies also produced bad fruit in the end in my own life. As to the accuracy of some charismatic prophecies, I believe this can be explained by Acts 16:16-18 as the Enemy is not beyond at least some knowledge of the future.

False prophets would be those who did not belong to the Lord, as evidenced by them not able to fully speak for God in all things, and to always have perfect prediction factor at work.
The Holy Spirit would not be giving a true prophet false doctrines or vague guesses!
Greater is the Spirit in a saved person than spirit of antichrist, so no, Satan can not do that to someone really saved.
NT Prophets spoke forth under the inspiration of the Spirit, so they would not have fale gifts Think important to realize that the Apostles were the NT status of OT prophets, so when they proclaimed by word or book :thus saiyth the Lord", while NT prophets were in Acts to give guidance to the Church, and to confirm the truth of the NT, but that is not needed for today, as have the inspired word of God!

 

[Jope]

For question 3 my own thesis in need of biblical scrutiny is simple: that the spirit that comes upon people "baptized by the holy spirit" who manifest gifts that appear supernatural is in fact a spirit of the antichrist from the Enemy.

Deuteronomy states that when a prophet prophesies and it doesn't come true, that prophet is not from the LORD.

The law of Moses also states that God reveals himself to prophets by means of dreams (Numbers 12:6). Cessationism isn't scriptural. 1 Corinthians states that when that which is perfect is come, that which in part shall be done away. Those who claim that the "perfect" is the completion of the canon of scripture, inadvertently also state (falsely) that "we now see more clearly than Paul did" (The Ryrie Study Bible, KJV, p. 1743).

Carl Jung has made remarkable progress on dream interpretation. You should read some of his works.

My interaction with charismatic prophets for years leads me to believe that their "baptism by the Holy Spirit" was in fact efficacious in that it produced two new "gifts" that they had not had before: charismatic style tongues and prophecy. I received the so called gift of tongues myself when I received my "baptism by the holy spirit," and I even grew in faith to the level I could sing in tongues after a couple of years. However, I know this so called "gift" to now be unbiblical, pride inducing, and of the Enemy as it did seem clearly unnatural and out of body. I have also received powerful prophecies from charismatic prophets that cut me down to the heart by people that did not know me, or I received prophecies of what was really in store for me in the near future. However, these prophecies also produced bad fruit in the end in my own life. As to the accuracy of some charismatic prophecies, I believe this can be explained by Acts 16:16-18 as the Enemy is not beyond at least some knowledge of the future.

Just because a saint sins doesn't mean the gift is false. We all sin. Hebrews 12:8--But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons (KJV).

As for Satan having foreknowledge of the future, numerous theories have been proposed: Shakespeare believed that demons use trickery in their language when they give prophecies and so deceive men. For example, "cool" used to mean, in the english language, that a person was angry. In Shakespeare's play "Macbeth", Macbeth is led to believe a prophecy falsely.

"After Macbeth derives much of his motivation from the Witches’ perceived promise of invincibility — that no man born of woman can kill him — he interprets the prophecy to mean he is untainted by femininity, as if femininity were the source of vulnerability.[6] Macbeth believes in his own invulnerability, claiming, "I bear a charmed life, which must not yield / To one of woman born" (Act V, scene 8). However, Macduff, born via caesarian section, exposes this fantasy as a fallacy." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macduff_(Macbeth)

Michael Psellus, "[who] became an influential political advisor to emperor Constantine IX Monomachos (reigned 1042–1055). During the same time, [who also] became the leading professor at the University of Constantinople, bearing the honorary title of "Chief of the Philosophers" (ὕπατος τῶν φιλοσόφων)" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Psellos), said,

"Yes [the daemons are gifted with foreknowledge], but not a causal or intelligent, nor experimental foreknowledge, but merely conjectural, for which reason it most generally fails, so that they scarcely ever utter a particle of truth" (On the Operation of Demons).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I now have an answer to question number 1.

My answer is that real, elect Believers can be led astray into movements like ecumenism, Roman Catholicism, Pentecostalism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Moderate Protestantism. I assume this to be true given even Peter's error when it came to Gentiles obeying the Law (Galatians 2:11-13), as well as Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 that elect Believers may be duped into listening to and obeying false prophets. However, I believe that real, elect Believers will always repent of their false beliefs before they die, because they are in essence those handed over to Satan by God for a time away from true communion with the saints (1 Corinthians 5:5 , 1 Timothy 1:20).

This conversation in another thread should shed more light on this:

Steven Yeadon: That is the thing that gets me the most: How can Pentecostal Christians and Roman Catholic Christians and Eastern Orthodox Christians and Moderate Christians all accept Jesus as Lord and Savior? For me, I doubt the sincerity of their belief and goodness of their fruit in some way as the scripture that always comes to mind is Matthew 7:21-23. Something that horrifies me beyond words.

rsr: Yes, it would truly horrible if some folks of other faith traditions actually were real Christians and we were just posers because we checked the correct boxes and didn't actually live the way Christ told us to.

Steven Yeadon: Wow! I didn't understand this until a few read throughs. I get it. Those who believe the right things because they stake it all on His Word and match it by doing the right things are different. They show a faith that bears good fruit worthy of a reward. People who do not believe the right things and do not do the right things can only blame themselves on the Day of Judgment. So very harsh, but it seems to be of the Master I have to conclude.

Thus, I conclude that false prophets, unless they repent of their false prophecy and bear good fruit, must be lost to hell.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I submit this for question number 3: Could the false prophets found throughout the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement be the army of false prophets wielding signs and wonders that Jesus warned of in Mark 13:21-23 and Matthew 24:23-28 ?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I submit this for question number 3: Could the false prophets found throughout the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement be the army of false prophets wielding signs and wonders that Jesus warned of in Mark 13:21-23 and Matthew 24:23-28 ?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'm sorry administrators. I clicked the submit button twice because it seemed to freeze. Could you remove the two extra posts and this one as well?

 

[Jope]

I now have an answer to question number 1.

My answer is that real, elect Believers can be led astray into movements like ecumenism, Roman Catholicism, Pentecostalism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Moderate Protestantism.

I have an answer to my question too. Steven Yeadon is led astray. Who's right?

That is the thing that gets me the most: How can Pentecostal Christians and Roman Catholic Christians and Eastern Orthodox Christians and Moderate Christians all accept Jesus as Lord and Savior? For me, I doubt the sincerity of their belief

...And I'm sure they doubt the sincerity of your belief too

and goodness of their fruit in some way as the scripture that always comes to mind is Matthew 7:21-23. Something that horrifies me beyond words.

You should check out dispensational theology. Lewis Chafer, George Peters, Dwight Pentecost. Who knows, maybe YOU're led astray? You didn't really give a good rebuttal at all to my Ryrie Study Bible comment.

Have a good one mister "led astray. "

 

[Steven Yeadon]

And I'm sure they doubt the sincerity of your belief too

Here I have to be a total inheritor of the Anabaptist tradition as a southern baptist. If we go to the Word of God and take it as the literal truth to interpret all reality, then those outside of conservative Protestantism are very, very, very led astray. The biblical evidence for this is numerous and ancient and found all over the internet.

Now, I'm not saying all conservative Protestants are righteous or even have saving faith. However, as a new Christian of nine months who has looked carefully at the Word and used it to judge all things by, I have come to understand that the only game in town for doctrinal truth is conservative Protestantism. Now, conservative Protestants have many groups within them that may be misinterpreting the scriptures, but so far conservative Protestants as a group are the only ones that agree in doctrine with the bible on almost all points. I have found this especially true of the inheritors of the Anabaptist tradition, which speaks volumes for the martyrs that have gone before us who died in order to be baptized a Believer. It also shows how great leaders like Menno Simons were, who were willing to challenge the monsters of his day including Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and the Roman Catholic Church, all of which would martyr us for living according to His Word at all as the literal truth to interpret reality by.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

That said, while doing research I found John 11:25-27 . Combined with John 6:56-8 and John 3:16 along with Mark 9:38-41 they show salvation may be easier than I think. If false prophets and false teachers are saved though, what becomes of them. I approach this as a hypothetical for now. Perhaps 1 Corinthians 3:5-15 shows that false church leaders who build on Jesus Christ as the sure foundation are saved, but will suffer mightily on the Day of Judgment when their works are confirmed as false?

 

[Jope]

Here I have to be a total inheritor of the Anabaptist tradition as a southern baptist. If we go to the Word of God and take it as the literal truth to interpret all reality, then those outside of conservative Protestantism are very, very, very led astray. The biblical evidence for this is numerous and ancient and found all over the internet.

Here is some Church history for you, which is not found in the word of God:

"Sola scriptura" is a late 16th century doctrine. Are you saying that no Christian was saved before Luther?
Luther didn't even believe 100% in Sola Scriptura. He quotes several times from the apocrypha as authoritative and, as I've said before, believes prophecy to be active and divinely sanctioned. He even grabs support from Cicero:

To speak deliberately and slowly best becomes a preacher; for thereby
he may the more effectually and impressively deliver his sermon. Seneca
writes of Cicero, that he spake deliberately from the heart (Table Talks, Of Preachers and Preaching, CCCCV).​

The "ancient" "biblical evidence" also claims, that the bible itself quotes numerous times from non-biblical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

Men of the Church, not apostles, wrote "bible canons" for the church, and these have changed through the ages: so which council is correct? Also, the Church Fathers quoted a number of works that we do not.

"[The Shephard of Hermas] had a great vogue in orthodox circles and was even included in some copies of the New Testament (it is found in the Sinaitic Codex)" - A. D. Howell-Smith, Jesus Not a Myth, pp. 120-121.

Iranaeus quotes it as Scripture:

Truly, then, the Scripture declared, which says, “First of all believe that there is one God, who has established all things, and completed them, and having caused that from what had no being, all things should come into existence: [this quote is taken from the Shephard of Hermas]” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter XX, 2)​

Nowhere in the scriptures do we find the canon or instructions on how to form the canon.

Scriptures once considered divine are now lost. Paul wrote some epistles that we do not have today, and Peter claims that ALL of Paul's epistles were considered divine (2 Pet. 3:15-16).

Now, I'm not saying all conservative Protestants are righteous or even have saving faith. However, as a new Christian of nine months who has looked carefully at the Word and used it to judge all things by, I have come to understand that the only game in town for doctrinal truth is conservative Protestantism. Now, conservative Protestants have many groups within them that may be misinterpreting the scriptures, but so far conservative Protestants as a group are the only ones that agree in doctrine with the bible on almost all points. I have found this especially true of the inheritors of the Anabaptist tradition, which speaks volumes for the martyrs that have gone before us who died in order to be baptized a Believer. It also shows how great leaders like Menno Simons were, who were willing to challenge the monsters of his day including Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and the Roman Catholic Church, all of which would martyr us for living according to His Word at all as the literal truth to interpret reality by.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Here is some Church history for you, which is not found in the word of God:

"Sola scriptura" is a late 16th century doctrine. Are you saying that no Christian was saved before Luther?
Luther didn't even believe 100% in Sola Scriptura. He quotes several times from the apocrypha as authoritative and, as I've said before, believes prophecy to be active and divinely sanctioned. He even grabs support from Cicero:

To speak deliberately and slowly best becomes a preacher; for thereby
he may the more effectually and impressively deliver his sermon. Seneca
writes of Cicero, that he spake deliberately from the heart (Table Talks, Of Preachers and Preaching, CCCCV).
The "ancient" "biblical evidence" also claims, that the bible itself quotes numerous times from non-biblical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

Men of the Church, not apostles, wrote "bible canons" for the church, and these have changed through the ages: so which council is correct? Also, the Church Fathers quoted a number of works that we do not.

"[The Shephard of Hermas] had a great vogue in orthodox circles and was even included in some copies of the New Testament (it is found in the Sinaitic Codex)" - A. D. Howell-Smith, Jesus Not a Myth, pp. 120-121.

Iranaeus quotes it as Scripture:

Truly, then, the Scripture declared, which says, “First of all believe that there is one God, who has established all things, and completed them, and having caused that from what had no being, all things should come into existence: [this quote is taken from the Shephard of Hermas]” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter XX, 2)
Nowhere in the scriptures do we find the canon or instructions on how to form the canon.

Scriptures once considered divine are now lost. Paul wrote some epistles that we do not have today, and Peter claims that ALL of Paul's epistles were considered divine (2 Pet. 3:15-16).

I'll be honest Jope, I don't have the church history to keep up with you. I still do not know how God worked in the church from the time of Constantine through Luther despite lots of research and two church history classes at graduate level.

I also realize from the Voice of the Martyrs that all denominations seem to have martyrs, who we know are those who will surely inherit their reward (John 12:25). I think we can make a good thread out of this for others to discuss with you, who probably know much more than I. I could also do a lot more research myself over time. So I'll leave my argument as an anabaptist as one that was a bit hasty and bombastic and in need of further research.

Thank you!

 

[The Biblicist]

Mt. 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This is stated in a context of salvation (Mt. 7:13-14; 21-23). Jesus categorically states that "false prophets" INWARDLY THEY ARE bad. Then he illustrates it metaphorically again categorically denying that anything inwardly bad can bring forth good fruit.

False prophets teach a false gospel (Mt. 7:13) and make a false profession (Mt. 7:21-23). They proclaim faith in Christ PLUS "have we not done" kind of gospel. Their gospel is a MIXTURE of faith and works (sand) and not the solid rock.

John categorically states we are to believe not "every spirit" and in particular the kind of spirits that characterize a "false prophet" (1 Jn. 4:1) and contrasts those spirits IN THEM versus the Holy Spirit in true believers ("greater is he that is IN YOU than he that is IN the world").

Benny Hinn, and the rest of the charismatic false prophets have demonic spirits IN them and their FRUITS of false prophecies manifest that and their gospel of faith plus works manifest that.