Are Gods Elect ever the workers of iniquity ?

[Brightfame52]

So the answer is absolutely NO the Elect can never be the workers of iniquity spoken of in Ps 5:5 because God doesn't hate the elect but Loves them, even while they're enemies and sinners, Read Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us[the elect], in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 2

 

[MrW]

Man failed his responsivity in Adam to be obedient. So hes born a guilty sinner Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

All very good but does not mean God reprobated some from the beginning.

 

[Brightfame52]

All very good but does not mean God reprobated some from the beginning.

Technically He did, He created some men as vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction Rom 9:20-22, He made them to be punished for their sins against Him. They never had a choice or chance to be anything otherwise than vessels of wrath. Hows that ?

 

[Charlie24]

Technically He did, He created some men as vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction Rom 9:20-22, He made them to be punished for their sins against Him. They never had a choice or chance to be anything otherwise than vessels of wrath. Hows that ?

What all the 5 pt. Calvinists refuse to see in Rom. 9:22 is this.

"endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath..."

God endured with much suffering, giving them space to repent, but they chose to be fitted for destruction though God suffered long with them.

This goes back to God "not willing that any should perish."

But the 5pt. Calvinist will not believe it, they will not accept it.

 

[Charlie24]

What all the 5 pt. Calvinists refuse to see in Rom. 9:22 is this.

"endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath..."

God endured with much suffering, giving them space to repent, but they chose to be fitted for destruction though God suffered long with them.

This goes back to God "not willing that any should perish."

But the 5pt. Calvinist will not believe it, they will not accept it.

This is why I will not let a Calvinist off the hook with Single predestination.

I force them to admit double predestination, when I have the time to do it.

In Rom 9:22, double predestination is a proven lie!

 

[KenH]

God endured with much suffering, giving them space to repent, but they chose to be fitted for destruction though God suffered long with them.

"Romans 9:22 does not say “vessels of wrath God allowed to be fitted to destruction,” and it does not say, “vessels of wrath that fitted themselves to destruction.” There is no passive language (permits, allows, or lets happen) in this text.

The perfect tense verb prepared or fitted (katartizō, κατηρτισμένα) is in the passive voice. This grammatically rules out the idea that God only permitted reprobates to be fitted to destruction, and it certainly doesn’t imply that God fitted the vessels of wrath to destruction because of foreseen disbelief.

Prepared or fitted (katartizō, κατηρτισμένα) indicates that the vessels of wrath were eternally fitted to destruction by God. Scholars have argued that κατηρτισμένα means “of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction” (Thayer, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 2019 [1896], p. 336), or “…designed for destruction” (BDAG, 2000, p. 526).

from Sonny Hernandez, Biblical Reprobation: A primer on the most hated and neglected doctrine

 

[KenH]

Only because God (in your mind) reprobated them, and thus made them not responsible.

1) It is in my mind because it is what the Bible teaches, and God has opened my heart to His Word.

2) Yes, God did indeed reprobate them.

3) Yes, they are responsible for the sins that they commit.

 

[Charlie24]

"Romans 9:22 does not say “vessels of wrath God allowed to be fitted to destruction,” and it does not say, “vessels of wrath that fitted themselves to destruction.” There is no passive language (permits, allows, or lets happen) in this text.

The perfect tense verb prepared or fitted (katartizō, κατηρτισμένα) is in the passive voice. This grammatically rules out the idea that God only permitted reprobates to be fitted to destruction, and it certainly doesn’t imply that God fitted the vessels of wrath to destruction because of foreseen disbelief.

Prepared or fitted (katartizō, κατηρτισμένα) indicates that the vessels of wrath were eternally fitted to destruction by God. Scholars have argued that κατηρτισμένα means “of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction” (Thayer, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 2019 [1896], p. 336), or “…designed for destruction” (BDAG, 2000, p. 526).

from Sonny Hernandez, Biblical Reprobation: A primer on the most hated and neglected doctrine

Answer me this, Ken.

If these "vessels of wrath" which if they stayed in that condition were "fitted for destruction," were predestined to this darkness, what point would be the "longsuffering" of God?

 

[KenH]

If these "vessels of wrath" which if they stayed in that condition were "fitted for destruction," were predestined to this darkness, what point would be the "longsuffering" of God?

God appoints the time when everyone will die - elect and reprobate. Some of the elect, such as the thief on the cross that was regenerated, lived only a short time before he died after being born again, while some of the elect live for many decades after being born again. The same with the reprobate - some live only a few years on this earth and some live many decades on this earth. God is sovereign. Just because God forbears with a reprobate for many decades before he was appointed to die, is not a sign of God's blessing on him.

 

[Charlie24]

God appoints the time when everyone will die - elect and reprobate. Some of the elect, such as the thief on the cross that was regenerated, lived only a short time before he died after being born again, while some of the elect live for many decades after being born again. The same with the reprobate - some live only a few years on this earth and some live many decades on this earth. God is sovereign. Just because God forbears with a reprobate for many decades before he was appointed to die, is not a sign of God's blessing on him.

Concerning "longsuffering" do you remember this verse, Ken.

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

This is the exact same thing Paul is referring to in Rom. 9:22.

God appoints no one to destruction, He is not willing for any to perish.

Predestination is a lie, KEN!!!

 

[KenH]

but is longsuffering to us-ward

"Us-ward" - the elect who have been born again to whom Peter is writing.

 

[MrW]

Technically He did, He created some men as vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction Rom 9:20-22, He made them to be punished for their sins against Him. They never had a choice or chance to be anything otherwise than vessels of wrath. Hows that ?

I’m fine with you holding your own belief, but I don’t share it.

I don’t think the “vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction” is correctly understood. I believe they chose of themselves to be that way, and therefore became fit for destruction. They willfully brought it on themselves.

 

[KenH]

He is not willing for any to perish.

Then, you are saying that God fails to save every person that He wants to save. Your god is no different than the gods of Greek mythology or the "super-heroes" in Marvel movies; they might succeed or they might not succeed.

The God of the Bible always accomplishes His will. He never fails.

 

[Charlie24]

"Us-ward" - the elect who have been born again to whom Peter is writing.

There's the other lie, election! They go hand in hand.

If the Calvinist "election" is true, And Peter is speaking of only the elect, why would God be longsuffering with them? Their salvation is sure, right?

They are the elect, so you say. No, Ken, you are very much confused!

 

[Charlie24]

There's the other lie, election! They go hand in hand.

If the Calvinist "election" is true, And Peter is speaking of only the elect, why would God be longsuffering with them? Their salvation is sure, right?

They are the elect, so you say. No, Ken, you are very much confused!

We could do this all night! But the folks get the picture, the entire Calvinist theology is based on lies.

 

[MrW]

Instead of answering each post, this is my answer to Brightflame, Ken, etc., above:

I don’t believe in Calvinism. Calvin was an evil man, and I do hope he repented and was saved before he died, but quoting his beliefs only reinforces more just how confused he was.

I believe my KJB and those who teach the same things I see there.

 

[Charlie24]

God's elect are born again during their lifetimes on this earth. Thus, Christ cannot return until the last of the elect have been born on earth and have been born again from above. At some point after that, Christ will return, get rid of this present heavens and earth, and replace them with the new heavens and earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

So, even those this world is so evil, and the saints long eagerly for Christ's return, they have to be patient until the last of the elect have been saved. God is longsuffering with His elect(after all, the elect are still living on this earth in unredeemed, vile fleshly bodies) until all of them are saved.

There's another lie! No where in Scripture is any man born-again over his lifetime.

Salvation takes place on the spot when faith is placed in Christ' finished work.

Rom. 10:9-10
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

That is instant salvation upon faith.

 

[KenH]

If the Calvinist "election" is true, And Peter is speaking of only the elect, why would God be longsuffering with them?

God's elect are born again during their lifetimes on this earth. Thus, Christ cannot return until the last of the elect have been born on earth and have been born again from above. At some point after that, Christ will return, get rid of this present heavens and earth, and replace them with the new heavens and earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

So, even those this world is so evil, and the saints long eagerly for Christ's return, they have to be patient until the last of the elect have been saved. God is longsuffering with His elect(after all, the elect are still living on this earth in unredeemed, vile fleshly bodies) until all of them are saved.

 

[Charlie24]

I’m fine with you holding your own belief, but I don’t share it.

I don’t think the “vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction” is correctly understood. I believe they chose of themselves to be that way, and therefore became fit for destruction. They willfully brought it on themselves.

Yea, if you continue to argue with them you have to double down and it gets hot.

I'm just going to have to let it go for now.

 

[KenH]

I don’t believe in Calvinism. Calvin

I don't follow John Calvin. I am not even a Calvinist. If I have to be labeled as something other than a Christian, then I prefer sovereign grace Baptist.

 

[KenH]

There's another lie! No where in Scripture is any man born-again over his lifetime.

I didn't say that it was a process over an entire lifetime. It happens when, under the preaching of the gospel of Christ, the Holy Spirit regenerates a person and they are given the gifts of faith in Christ and His finished work as their Surety and the repentance of dead works; it is not over some long period of time.

Let me rephrase the sentence, "God's elect are born again at some point during their lifetime on this earth."