Are individuals born evil or made that way?

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

Not only have I supplied verses in this thread, but have supplied numerous passages over the course of time on this forum. Here are some passages for you to consider:
If you would care to comment on these verses and the context they are given in let me know.

It fits within the general scheme of a fallen world. There is no question that children will, if they live...grow up to sin. That does not mean that we look at the infant in the womb and say "You sinner!" lol

What charge would you lay against the babe in the womb?


They are conceived in sin. It's a paradox, they are born dead in trespasses and sin

They are born "dead" because they do not have the Spirit of God.

That is why they will sin. That doesn't mean sin can be attributed to them personally.

Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Again, the sin in view in "all have sinned" speaks of those who have...sinned.

I ask you again...

Darrell C said: ↑

What charge would you lay against the babe in the womb?

All the verbs are aorist tense

Doesn't change anything, Hank.

sin entered the world

Entered the world, not Adam's DNA.

death passed upon all men

And he gives the reason...because they...personally...sinned.

all sinned

Right, all sinned, not all are sinning upon conception. Sin enetered the world, then the result of sin being in the world, death for those who sinned. Death has three primary applications in Scripture, the death we are born into to (which we receive without personally sinning), death in the physical for sinning, and the Second Death, which is everlasting life without God, Who gives life to men when He is in union with them (which occurs when men are regenerated).


Darrell C said: ↑

What charge would you lay against the babe in the womb?

These things were simultaneous.
When Adam sinned we all sinned including our precious babes as both sin and death was "passed" down to them the moment Adam sinned.

I am not guilty of Adam's sin, I am simply the recipient of the consequences of his sin. I will never eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Consider:
Luke 1:13-16
King James Version (KJV)
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

John the Baptist was a special case

Yes, and no. Yes, in that he was set apart by God for a particular ministry, but no, because he died without having the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through which men are regenerated (and in being born again they are reconciled to God).

John offered up sacrifice for his sin as well, if he kept the Law (which I am sure we can safely say a Prophet of God did).

The same thing being spoken of here about John is the same thing David cries out for, the intervention of the Spirit of God that he not sin. David states men will be converted, and by the power of the Holy Ghost John converted many men (in an Old Testament sense, of course).

when the babe dies before they have the mental capacity to willfully transgress the will of God, it is my belief that they will receive the same grace shown to the Old Testament Saints, who also died not having been eternally redeemed.

It is my belief that infants not having wilful sin but inherited sin only are regenerated by God upon an untimely death.

I think you make a great mistake to differentiate sin, to categorize sin as "willful" and "inherited."

Scripture does not do that.

Sin is not a disease passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, sin is the inevitable result of not being in relationship with God. You simply cannot lay a charge of sin to the babe in the womb without categorizing sin as you have. Please show me a scriptural reference for "inherited sin," and we will look at it.

A young apple tree is an apple tree even before it ever bears fruit.

You are forgetting that it begins, not as a young apple tree, but as a Seed. No Seed has ever produced fruit, lol.

A baby rattle snake is born with venom.

Yes but that does not mean that the baby snake is guilty of its parent biting someone.


Deuteronomy 24:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.



2 Chronicles 25:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.


While it is true this has a temporal context, it is equally true the heart and will of God is written into the Law.

We are born sinners, the children of Adam.

HankD

We are born into conditions whereby we will inevitably sin, however, that does not mean we can embrace a view I do not see taught in Scripture, that is, that sin is a disease passed from father to son, mother to daughter. Man sins because he is bereft of the only thing whereby he can be righteous (and I speak not of the righteousness of men, it is true that men can be righteous from a human perspective, but that must be contrasted with the righteousness which ios only through faith in Christ).

When you were born, you did not come out of the womb...and sin. It was not a sin for you to cry, to be fearful, to be without understanding. It was not until you came to understand things and began making decisions to violate what was established as right and wrong were you truly guilty of sin. While we can say that we "sinned in Adam," even as Levi paid tithes in Abraham (Hebrews 9:9-10), that is not the sin for which men die. Adam's descendants are dead as a result of what he did, not what they did. It is the severity of judgment, or lack thereof that is determined by the individual, not by Adam's transgression.

Think about the babe that dies in the womb, Hank, who I believe receives the grace of God upon death, because God has always judged men based on their response to His revealed will. They are conceived dead, outside of relationship with God, yet God can bestow grace. They will never receive or reject God's will, yet will benefit, just as the Old Testament saints did...from the Cross.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Darrell C said: ↑

What charge would you lay against the babe in the womb?

Being a human.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus told Nicodemous that no one will see the kingdom of heaven, unless they are born again.

No, that's not what He told Nicodemus. Only those that are FIRST born from above are capable of seeing the kingdom of God, because the kingdom of God is not something that can be seen with the mortal eye.

Only the heavenly born are able to discern the kingdom of heaven.

 

[kyredneck]

I think our understanding of the word is wrong, we think a person is evil when they've committed some heinous act. But the definition of the word is to be wicked, immoral, etc. We all have been born at enmity with God, that means at the very time we took breath into our lungs we were estranged from God.

Jesus told Nicodemous that no one will see the kingdom of heaven, unless they are born again. Being a sinner is missing the mark, we have all missed the mark. Yes, we are born evil and with the propensity to commit evil.

No one wants to think of themselves as being evil, we make excuses for our actions or behaviors, we call small lies "white lies". No one has to teach us to do evil, it comes naturally. A toddler isn't taught to throw a tantrum when he/she doesn't get their way, it just come naturally to them. Paul calls it our "sin nature".

And Becky, I generally agree with the rest of your post, it's just that I perceived you've taken Jn 3:3 in the wrong light. The birth from above [John 1:13] is something in which we're totally passive just as it is with our physical birth.

And welcome to the BB! You should introduce yourself on the new members forum.

 

[Darrell C]

A toddler isn't taught to throw a tantrum when he/she doesn't get their way, it just come naturally to them. Paul calls it our "sin nature".

Just looking at this as it was quoted by another member, and would agree, a toddler doesn't have to be taught to throw a tantrum, however, a toddler can be taught not to throw one, right? So the question is, if a child throws a tantrum, dose that mean the child is sinning because he/she has no other choice due to a "sin nature? When do children usually being to throw tantrums, is it not after they have gained a knowledge? So again I would emphasize that there is a point in time when a child sins. It is possible for a child to be sinning when they throw a tantrum, but, it is equally possible for a child to throw one justly (i.e.. parents mistreat the child or the child is neglected (hungry)).

The point is that the child does not sin while it has no conscious understanding of their surroundings. We don't charge a child with sin for kicking mommy while in the womb, lol. We don't charge a child with sin for crying because they are hungry, or need to be changed.

And when the child does sin, such as throwing a tantrum, I think we would have to consider their experience to date to see the reason. Perhaps refused to do something they had previously done.

Understand, I am not saying that a child is "sinless" when conceived, I am emphasizing that it is lack of relationship with God, primarily being regenerate and eternally indwelt, that leads to sin. We saw in the case of John the Baptist that God can fill babes, even from the womb, with His Spirit (for the purpose of ministry), however, John was just as much in need of Eternal Redemption through Christ and His Sacrifice as Judas was. Divine intervention on John's part did not change his primary problem, which was, again, he was "spiritually dead" because he did not have the eternal indwelling of God, which comes only through salvation in Christ, at which time one is indwelt and made new.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You are welcome, Sovereign Grace, to point out why it is that you disagree with the post.


God bless.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are welcome, Sovereign Grace, to point out why it is that you disagree with the post.


God bless.

You were found guilty in Adam, as Romans 5:12, 3:23, 6:23, and 1 Cor. 15:22 aver...

I also was found guilty in Adam. As was all his posterity.

 

[Darrell C]

You were found guilty in Adam, as Romans 5:12, 3:23, 6:23, and 1 Cor. 15:22 aver...

I also was found guilty in Adam. As was all his posterity.

Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


I see where death passed to all men, not sin. That all will sin is a given, because they are separated from God until born again. I see where sin entered the world, but I don't see it "entering man." Sin is something a man does, not something he inherits. The inheritance is a result of man's condition, which is not a "sin nature," so much, but a lack of a godly nature. The result is inevitable, but, it doesn't mean that I was sinful in the womb, or as a young child.

Now my teens and early twenties...I plead the fifth.


Romans 3:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Same statement we have in 5:12. This is a result, not a cause.


Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Again, we see death is the penalty for the sin. Nothing about being born with some kind of inherent sin, as though sin is a disease.

I will ask you the same thing I asked Hank...what sin does a babe in the womb commit? Unless you ascribe a literal element (though I understand it would be considered spiritual) as though sin were a disease that passes from father to son or daughter, then you must admit it is a little weak. Are men co-joined spiritually, if we say it is a "spiritual condition?" Is there a spiritual disease, in reality, that literally passes from father to son and daughter? I can't find anywhere in Scripture that says that.



1 Corinthians 15:22
King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Again, this is the result of Adam's sin. Men don't die because they sin, they sin because they are dead. In Adam's case he was alive, and in relationship with God. When he sinned, he died spiritually, because he lost that relationship. That was not the case with me. I was born dead, it was inevitable that I would sin, and inevitable that I would have died outside of relationship with God and that death would have continued into eternity.

I think this is clearest verse to illustrate what I am saying.


Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



God bless.

 

[HankD]

Romans 5:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
God bless.

Entered, passed and sinned are all indicative aorist active tense.

"All have sinned" is not the perfect tense even though the KJV English seems to indicate it, it is aorist

Young's Literal Translation:

Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

From Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, Section FIRST AORIST ACTIVE AND MIDDLE INDICATIVE, PGS. 66-67

"The function of the aorist tense is a matter of tremendous importance. The time of action is past. The kind of action is punctiliar. Thus is observed the difference between the imperfect and the aorist. The imperfect indicates continuous action in past time. 'I was loosing'; the aorist indicates finished action in past time - 'I loosed'. The imperfect is a 'moving picture'; the aorist a snapshot."

My embolden

all sinned - completed action in past time.

It is not future tense either.

When Adam sinned we all sinned - It does not say - all will sin - but all sinned.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

Entered, passed and sinned are all indicative aorist active tense.

Doesn't change the context. You, and many, are inserting into the statement/s something not intended.

"All have sinned" is not the perfect tense even though the KJV English seems to indicate it, it is aorist

Doesn't change the context.

Young's Literal Translation:

Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;

From Essentials of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, Section FIRST AORIST ACTIVE AND MIDDLE INDICATIVE, PGS. 66-67

"The function of the aorist tense is a matter of tremendous importance. The time of action is past. The kind of action is punctiliar. Thus is observed the difference between the imperfect and the aorist. The imperfect indicates continuous action in past time. 'I was loosing'; the aorist indicates finished action in past time - 'I loosed'. The imperfect is a 'moving picture'; the aorist a snapshot."

I am far more concerned with what Paul has to say on the matter...than Young or Summers.

Sin entered the world, not men.

Men die because of sin.

Death, not sin...passed to all men.

Certainly there is an inevitability to man sinning, which I have maintained in every post: because men are born separated from God. They are dead spiritually because of that, and they will sin because of that, and they will die because of that.

The simple point I make is that sin is not a disease passed from father to son, it is a matter of what is not passed down.

That is...the indwelling of God.

My embolden

all sinned - completed action in past time.

It is not future tense either.

I agree...it is not future tense.

While from an eternal perspective you and I were guilty of sin before being born, that doesn't change the fact that it was not until we were conceived, born into this world, and had an understanding by which we could violate right and wrong...that we were of ourselves guilty.

God judges justly, and does so on the basis of the response of men to His revealed will. Scripture presents that Just nature of God throughout its pages. This is why teachers are judged more severely, because it is based on what they know...

...not flippantly on what they don't.

When Adam sinned we all sinned - It does not say - all will sin - but all sinned.

And when Abraham paid tithes to Melchisadec all of the Tribe of Levi paid tithes while in his loins. Doesn't mean they personally paid tithes. It is a concept the writer uses to illustrate a point: that Christ is superior in His Priesthood to the established Levitical Priesthood.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

HankD

Correct. Those are the conditions of a fallen world, doesn't mean that David sinned in the womb. Doesn't mean his mother was depraved when David was conceived.

David speaks from a general view of the condition of the world, that doesn't mean God made David a sinner in the womb.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/romans/3:23/
SovereignGrace said: [URL='http://www.baptistboard.com/goto/post?id=2291453#post-2291453']↑
You were found guilty in Adam, as Romans 5:12, 3:23, 6:23, and 1 Cor. 15:22 aver...

I also was found guilty in Adam. As was all his posterity.[/URL]
http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/romans/3:23/
http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/romans/3:23/
http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/romans/3:23/
Romans 3:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Same statement we have in 5:12. This is a result, not a cause.

While I think we would all agree that from an eternal perspective a declaration of guilt is evident, however, when it comes to personal responsibility in regards to sin, this is, I feel, an issue which Scripture distinguishes, and does so for good reason, as it illustrates the Just nature of God in judgment.

So the above verse is presented with the intention of showing man's "guilt" in regards to sin in what I see as an over-generalized position that implies sin is a characteristic not unlike a disease, and is passed down essentially through humanity. However, let's consult the context of the passage to see who Paul is speaking about. I will give one verse only to illustrate my point:


Romans 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


The context centers heavily on Jew and Gentile, and those who have the Law, and those who do not. This context reaches back into the preceding chapter.

And the context does show that in view is a recount of those...in the past.

Verse 23 is the threshold of Paul speaking about those in the future, the distinction being given to the contrast between what was (justification through obedience to the revelation of God (internal, Creation, and the Word of God), and what now is (Justification through the Sacrifice of Christ).


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Doesn't change the context. You, and many, are inserting into the statement/s something not intended.

What exactly is it that I have inserted?

Doesn't change the context.

agreed.

I am far more concerned with what Paul has to say on the matter...than Young or Summers.

So am I and I tried to show you my understanding of what Paul is saying in Romans 5. But why bother going to church then if you won't hear human teachers of the word? Did your pastor go to bible school or seminary (or maybe you don't attend church, I don't really know). If you are a pastor did you go to bible college or have some kind of formal training?

Sin entered the world, not men.

Agreed and it and death being in the same past tense was "passed" on to all men.

Men die because of sin.

Agreed.

Death, not sin...passed to all men.

Don't agree.

Certainly there is an inevitability to man sinning, which I have maintained in every post: because men are born separated from God. They are dead spiritually because of that, and they will sin because of that, and they will die because of that.

Only sinners are separated from God.

The simple point I make is that sin is not a disease passed from father to son, it is a matter of what is not passed down.

Human sin and death are inseparable, this is why infants sometimes die before they have volition.

While from an eternal perspective you and I were guilty of sin before being born, that doesn't change the fact that it was not until we were conceived, born into this world, and had an understanding by which we could violate right and wrong...that we were of ourselves guilty.

When an infant dies who sinned?
According to your view no infant should die until they reach the age of volition.

And when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek all of the Tribe of Levi paid tithes while in his loins. Doesn't mean they personally paid tithes. It is a concept the writer uses to illustrate a point: that Christ is superior in His Priesthood to the established Levitical Priesthood.

Agreed. And when Adam sinned we all sinned, that is the point of Romans 5:12.

Correct. Those are the conditions of a fallen world, doesn't mean that David sinned in the womb. Doesn't mean his mother was depraved when David was conceived.
David speaks from a general view of the condition of the world, that doesn't mean God made David a sinner in the womb.

I never said God made anyone a sinner. David was a sinner by his own admission even from conception, his father Adam made him a sinner by nature from conception.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Now all you need is Scripture to verify that.


God bless.

We were all conceived in sin , as per David , and whn Adam fell , God judged all humanity to be sinners in him now...

 

[Darrell C]

What exactly is it that I have inserted?
agreed.
So am I and I tried to show you my understanding of what Paul is saying in Romans 5. But why bother going to church then if you won't hear human teachers of the word? Did your pastor go to bible school or seminary (or maybe you don't attend church, I don't really know). If you are a pastor did you go to bible college or have some kind of formal training?
Agreed and it and death being in the same past tense was "passed" on to all men.
Agreed.
Don't agree.
Only sinners are separated from God.
Human sin and death are inseparable, this is why infants sometimes die before they have volition.
When an infant dies who sinned?
According to your view no infant should die until they reach the age of volition.
Agreed. And when Adam sinned we all sinned, that is the point of Romans 5:12.
I never said God made anyone a sinner. David was a sinner by his own admission even from conception, his father Adam made him a sinner by nature from conception.

HankD

I'll have to come back to this, Hank, I am out of time for now. Looking forward to it because it actually touches on what I see as an important issue I think we need to understand.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

I'll have to come back to this, Hank, I am out of time for now. Looking forward to it because it actually touches on what I see as an important issue I think we need to understand.


God bless.

OK brother, no problem.

I am reluctant to prolong these issues because I don't want to damage the fellowship in Christ that we have, so maybe one more debate exchange to clarify our differing views for each other as well as onlookers.

My purpose is not to bully by personal confrontations or use excessive verbal force with issues of debate.
FWIW, IMO you have done a noble job in defense of your view.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

We were all conceived in sin , as per David , and whn Adam fell , God judged all humanity to be sinners in him now...

So if you had died in the womb, what sin is it that would keep you from the presence of God? How severe would your eternal separation be? Is there a general separation and judgment just for being human? How would your eternal destiny be decided?

You are already dead in Adam, so what changes? You are already in the state which is the result of Adam's sin, separated from God, so how does sin play into it?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

OK brother, no problem.

I am reluctant to prolong these issues because I don't want to damage the fellowship in Christ that we have, so maybe one more debate exchange to clarify our differing views for each other as well as onlookers.

My purpose is not to bully by personal confrontations or use excessive verbal force with issues of debate.
FWIW, IMO you have done a noble job in defense of your view.

HankD

I wouldn't worry too much about hostility, my friend, debating the issues is the primary reason we are here, and in doing so we can help each other. It is a matter of having a concern for our brothers and sisters, if you ask me.

But as I said, I am out of time, and this issue does have a greater background of consideration for us, which I hope to bring out when addressing your last post. I see it as an issue of great importance with far reaching impact in regards to other issues often debated.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

So if you had died in the womb, what sin is it that would keep you from the presence of God? How severe would your eternal separation be? Is there a general separation and judgment just for being human? How would your eternal destiny be decided?


God bless.

All have sinned and fallen short ofthe glory of God, and all are in Adam physical life/death, but God placed the sins of infants/babes/those still borned unto Jesus, and He paid for them their sin debt, and di what they could not for themselves!

 

[Darrell C]

All have sinned and fallen short ofthe glory of God, and all are in Adam physical life/death, but God placed the sins of infants/babes/those still borned unto Jesus, and He paid for them their sin debt, and di what they could not for themselves!

Again, I ask you...what is the sin committed by babes in the womb?

And I edited the last post, so will repost it for you:

You are already dead in Adam, so what changes? You are already in the state which is the result of Adam's sin, separated from God, so how does sin play into it?

Have to go, so see you guys later.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, I ask you...what is the sin committed by babes in the womb?

And I edited the last post, so will repost it for you:




Have to go, so see you guys later.


God bless.

They are born with a sin nature, are self willed, as all are!
They are born dead spiritual, estranged from God by fall of Adam, but God decided to grant them new life in Christ, second Adam!