Are Mormons Biblical Christians?

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, it really helps to read what the Scriptures actually say:

" Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Hmm - says something very different from what you are saying, isn't it? Yes, we will still be seeking to please the Lord even when we are perfect.

Not at all! did he not say away from the body? and how do you interpret "away" from the body? You are to do these things away from the body. Pray tell. Do you hold to asteral projection? If not then he means when we have died. Does he not? And verse 9 makes it clear what we are to do away from the body

make it our goal to please him

Thats called holiness. that is what we do for God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

God sees me in jesus, he sees the perfection of Christ applied to my behalf, and the father views me in Christ, so to Him in the process of becoming more like jesus, and will be fully as jesus now is once glorified!

My behaviour while here determines rewards, or lack of. but NO need to purify myself in order to go to heaven, as theblood cleanses me from ALL sins past/present/future!

So are you suggesting that God doesn't want you to stop sinning? That since all he sees is Jesus, you can rebell all you want? I never said all your sins weren't for given. I said you aren't completely sanctified. Two different things. Again you confusing Atonement with Sanctification. Do you still have bad thoughts? Do you still disobey God in certain things? Why do you do that? Do you think God wants you to keep doing that? What does Paul say? "God Forbid!" lets look more closely

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means!

and later

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

Your sins are forgiven! But does God want you to continue sinning or to struggle against it purifying yourself "transforming your mind" into the likeness of Christ?

 

[steaver]

Purgatory is not known as Millenial Exclusion. Millenial Exclusion is a modern thought by J. D. Faust who misunderstood the dogma for instance this is what he says:
The dogma does not say we earn salvation in purgatory as I've said before. The person in purgatory is saved. They are being sanctified. Big difference. They are perfecting an inperfect love for God. Its a theory based on a misunderstood doctrine. Its a term being used for what no one actually believes.

The doctrine of Purgatory was in effect long before the reformers much more so JD Faust and Millenial Exclusion.

ME doesn't teach you earn salvation either. Both Purgatory and ME teach punishment for sins of the saved. They are prisons just like the Mormons teach. They go against Jesus' teaching...."if the Son sets you free you are free indeed."

 

[Yeshua1]

So are you suggesting that God doesn't want you to stop sinning? That since all he sees is Jesus, you can rebell all you want? I never said all your sins weren't for given. I said you aren't completely sanctified. Two different things. Again you confusing Atonement with Sanctification. Do you still have bad thoughts? Do you still disobey God in certain things? Why do you do that? Do you think God wants you to keep doing that? What does Paul say? "God Forbid!" lets look more closely and later Your sins are forgiven! But does God want you to continue sinning or to struggle against it purifying yourself "transforming your mind" into the likeness of Christ?

ONLY perfect beings can enter into heaven, and as such we are when clothed by blood of jesus, and again, our growing/maturing into image of Christ is for eternal rewards, and ability to receive the best of God for us here and now, does NOT mean heaven or not, ALL saved will face judgement for their works as regards to rewards or not, ALL make heaven immediatly after that process completed of Bheama seat judgement of the believer!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ONLY perfect beings can enter into heaven,

Yes! Thats right! revelation 21:27

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

and as such we are when clothed by blood of jesus,

Yes that is Attonement!!!! However, are you Perfect? Are you Totally Sanctified? Do you still have evil thoughts? Do you still disobey? These are issues for Holiness and Sanctification not Attonment or Justification.

our growing/maturing into image of Christ

This is what I'm speaking about are you fully mature in Christ? Now imagine this: Attonement is often described by Protestants as Jesus Covering you up ie hidding your true nature under his blood or clothes. The Reformers used this analogy to describe it. Snow covering up dung. The problem with this is that you still have dung. It may be covered and not seen but heaven forbid if you step in it and its true nature comes out. Jesus forgave our sins and attoned for them and Justified us so that we would be righteous indeed not just covered over. Or hidden. Because if all we are is covered over in heaven be assured we will be stepped on and revealed for what we are under the covering. Thus God wants us to be holy and sanctified as the scriptures tell us. Being sanctified is not just about rewards its about being in the presense of God for the scriptures tell us

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ME doesn't teach you earn salvation either. Both Purgatory and ME teach punishment for sins of the saved. They are prisons just like the Mormons teach. They go against Jesus' teaching...."if the Son sets you free you are free indeed."

Purgatory isn't a prison. You obviously haven't read my posts. Again its about sanctification. And note what I did quote CCC

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned

You misrepresent what purgatory is about. A closer consept is What the Orthodox call theosis. Look it up.

 

[Yeshua1]

Purgatory isn't a prison. You obviously haven't read my posts. Again its about sanctification. And note what I did quote CCC You misrepresent what purgatory is about. A closer consept is What the Orthodox call theosis. Look it up.

ONLY being found in sin will keep one from heaven ALL christians have sinned cleansed by the blood of Christ, why a need for it?

 

[annsni]

Not at all! did he not say away from the body? and how do you interpret "away" from the body? You are to do these things away from the body. Pray tell. Do you hold to asteral projection? If not then he means when we have died. Does he not? And verse 9 makes it clear what we are to do away from the body Thats called holiness. that is what we do for God.

When away from the body, we are present with the Lord. He states that in the passage that I posted:

"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord"
"to be away from the body and at home with the Lord"

Those are the only two choices. There's no "away from the body and away from the Lord". I really WOULD hope that we would continue to please the Lord when we are away from the body and present with the Lord.

 

[DHK]

This is what I'm speaking about are you fully mature in Christ? Now imagine this: Attonement is often described by Protestants as Jesus Covering you up ie hidding your true nature under his blood or clothes. The Reformers used this analogy to describe it. Snow covering up dung. The problem with this is that you still have dung.

That is not what the Bible teaches. In fact the Bible uses your illustration and teaches the opposite.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The scarlet stain will be gone. The dung will be gone. All will be white as snow.
When? When one comes to Christ. You are using the excuse of sanctification to deny the atonement and justify purgatory, a concept not taught in the Bible.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

When away from the body, we are present with the Lord. He states that in the passage that I posted:

"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord"
"to be away from the body and at home with the Lord"

Those are the only two choices. There's no "away from the body and away from the Lord". I really WOULD hope that we would continue to please the Lord when we are away from the body and present with the Lord.

And in the presence of the Lord is in Purgatory because as I quoted from Deut 4 God is a consuming fire!!! Purgatory is not so much a place as a state. And in the presence of God's consuming fire all wordly attachments are burned away. Note I said wordly attachments not sin (in your understanding of sin) which are forgiven in Jesus Christ's attonement. So therefore purgatory is not away from the Lord, its being in the Lord's presence. That is the actual view of purgatory.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ONLY being found in sin will keep one from heaven ALL christians have sinned cleansed by the blood of Christ, why a need for it?

Purgatory doesn't keep one from heaven its a state of preparation for heaven. Here is an imperfect example but the best I can come up with Imagine walking into someones house (heaven) but before you get into the living room (Heaven)you step into the Foyer. You aren't really prepared to enjoy the living room at this point because you need to take off your Jacket and in some peoples homes, take off your shoes. These things are the elements of being outside and were used outside but are no longer required or needed inside for the living room. In a sense that is what purgatory is like. All worldly attachments are discarded in the burning presense of the Lord for the Lord is a consuming fire.

 

[Yeshua1]

And in the presence of the Lord is in Purgatory because as I quoted from Deut 4 God is a consuming fire!!! Purgatory is not so much a place as a state. And in the presence of God's consuming fire all wordly attachments are burned away. Note I said wordly attachments not sin (in your understanding of sin) which are forgiven in Jesus Christ's attonement. So therefore purgatory is not away from the Lord, its being in the Lord's presence. That is the actual view of purgatory.

Actually the RCC has 4 places after death...

heaven for saints, hell for sinners, purgatory for catholics who have not ben made spiritually perfected enough while alive, andLimbo for unbaptised babies!

Justification by God grants us though "perfection", in sense God then considers us to be as perfect as His own Son, as we have His rightousness unto us!

So we are all saints right here and now while on earth, God maturing us more into image of Christ, and finally fully as jesus is in the sense of being pure once we are glorified!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually the RCC has 4 places after death...

heaven for saints, hell for sinners, purgatory for catholics who have not ben made spiritually perfected enough while alive, andLimbo for unbaptised babies!

Justification by God grants us though "perfection", in sense God then considers us to be as perfect as His own Son, as we have His rightousness unto us!

So we are all saints right here and now while on earth, God maturing us more into image of Christ, and finally fully as jesus is in the sense of being pure once we are glorified!

Not true. Dogmatically, there are two places after death. Heaven and hell. Purgatory is a state or a condition and limbo was a speculative thought during the middle ages but never made a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not true. Dogmatically, there are two places after death. Heaven and hell. Purgatory is a state or a condition and limbo was a speculative thought during the middle ages but never made a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

ALL believers in Christ called saints while alive on Earth...

Absent from the body means immediatly into presense of God...

God consuming fire refers ONLY to good works being judged, not to getting more purified, as blood of Jesus already did that!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ALL believers in Christ called saints while alive on Earth...

And your point is?

Absent from the body means immediatly into presense of God...

Yes and God is a consuming fire that will not let stand anything not totally perfect.

God consuming fire refers ONLY to good works being judged, not to getting more purified, as blood of Jesus already did that!

Here you are wrong as indicated in the verses I previously quoted on the thread. And again you confuse the Attonment with Sanctification. Two different subjects two different doctrines. Again actually study what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Sins are attoned for already. That is under the doctrine of the Atonement. Any attachment to the world is discarded in the purifying fire of God. That is under the doctrine of Sanctification of which Purgatory is a part. You ignored Peter who said

so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire

 

[Yeshua1]

And your point is?

Yes and God is a consuming fire that will not let stand anything not totally perfect.



Here you are wrong as indicated in the verses I previously quoted on the thread. And again you confuse the Attonment with Sanctification. Two different subjects two different doctrines. Again actually study what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Sins are attoned for already. That is under the doctrine of the Atonement. Any attachment to the world is discarded in the purifying fire of God. That is under the doctrine of Sanctification of which Purgatory is a part. You ignored Peter who said

peter was speaking of trials they were presently suffering for christ though, ditto james, not fire in heaven!

 

[DHK]

Yes and God is a consuming fire that will not let stand anything not totally perfect.

A moot point. Some day he will destroy the entire earth and universe with fire and create a new one. That has nothing to do with man-made doctrines of Purgatory.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
--no Purgatory here.

Here you are wrong as indicated in the verses I previously quoted on the thread. And again you confuse the Attonment with Sanctification.

No, you do that. You use the doctrine of sanctification to deny the atonement and to justify the man-made heresy of Purgatory.

Two different subjects two different doctrines. Again actually study what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory.

What a laugh! Study the doctrines of the RCC? Whatever for? The Bible has the truth, the inspired words of God, not the RCC. There is no purgatory. It is a man-made doctrine absent from the Bible. Its origin is a vain man's imagination.

Sins are attoned for already. That is under the doctrine of the Atonement.

Atonement means paid for. They have already been paid for. It means "covered," literally. They have been covered with the blood of Christ so that no blot of them can be seen.

Any attachment to the world is discarded in the purifying fire of God.

You are just making this up as you go along. You don't really know what the purifying fire of God is, do you? God purifies individuals on this earth, not in heaven, or in any other place outside of this earth (except perhaps in a space shuttle like Enterprise).

That is under the doctrine of Sanctification of which Purgatory is a part. You ignored Peter who said

The only chance you get at sanctification is on this earth. That is it. At the last breath you breathe before you leave this earth all chances for further sanctification are over--nada; zilch, zero, none. The time has come. For the unbeliever it will be a fearful time. For the believer it will be a time of rejoicing. But if you fear now, then perhaps you are not saved. No "purgatory" can help you. Only what is done on this earth will stand as reward. And they will only count as reward IF you have trusted Christ by faith and faith alone. There is no man that can cooperate with God in the matter of salvation. If they think they are, then they are not saved.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

A moot point. Some day he will destroy the entire earth and universe with fire and create a new one. That has nothing to do with man-made doctrines of Purgatory.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
--no Purgatory here.

No, you do that. You use the doctrine of sanctification to deny the atonement and to justify the man-made heresy of Purgatory.

What a laugh! Study the doctrines of the RCC? Whatever for? The Bible has the truth, the inspired words of God, not the RCC. There is no purgatory. It is a man-made doctrine absent from the Bible. Its origin is a vain man's imagination.

Atonement means paid for. They have already been paid for. It means "covered," literally. They have been covered with the blood of Christ so that no blot of them can be seen.

You are just making this up as you go along. You don't really know what the purifying fire of God is, do you? God purifies individuals on this earth, not in heaven, or in any other place outside of this earth (except perhaps in a space shuttle like Enterprise).

The only chance you get at sanctification is on this earth. That is it. At the last breath you breathe before you leave this earth all chances for further sanctification are over--nada; zilch, zero, none. The time has come. For the unbeliever it will be a fearful time. For the believer it will be a time of rejoicing. But if you fear now, then perhaps you are not saved. No "purgatory" can help you. Only what is done on this earth will stand as reward. And they will only count as reward IF you have trusted Christ by faith and faith alone. There is no man that can cooperate with God in the matter of salvation. If they think they are, then they are not saved.

DHK, where do you think the idea of purgatory came from? Where did Roman Catholics get this belief from?

 

[DHK]

DHK, where do you think the idea of purgatory come from? Where did Roman Catholics get this belief from?

I am not sure. Some of the early church fathers had some odd ideas of an intermediate state for the purpose of purification, but some of them had odd ideas about a lot of things.

Here is an interesting quote:

"The Devil begat darkness; darkness begat ignorance; ignorance begat error and his brethren; error begat free- will and presumption; free-will begat works; works begat forgetfulness of God; forgetfulness begat transgression; transgression begat superstition; superstition begat satisfaction; satisfaction begat the mass-offering; the mass-offering begat the priest; the priest begat unbelief; unbelief begat hypocrisy; hypocrisy begat traffic in offerings for gain; traffic in offerings for gain begat Purgatory; Purgatory begat the annual solemn vigils; the annual vigils begat church-livings; church-livings begat avarice; avarice begat swelling superfluity; swelling superfluity begat fulness; fulness begat rage; rage begat license; license begat empire and domination; domination begat pomp; pomp begat ambition; ambition begat simony; simony begat the pope and his brethren, about the time of the Babylonish captivity."

From Martin Luther

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am not sure. Some of the early church fathers had some odd ideas of an intermediate state for the purpose of purification, but some of them had odd ideas about a lot of things.

Here is an interesting quote:

From Martin Luther

Since Luther didn't believe in free will, was a church-statist, and persecutor, I don't go by what he says.