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Are musical styles amoral? Round 2.
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
- Start date
Magnetic Poles
New Member
How does anyone know what music was played around the so-called "golden calf"?
Maybe he needs to switch to de-CALF-inated coffee.
Probably. I mean, what all good, all knowing, all powerful Being allows Windows 8.0 to be released to the general public and while also letting the Office Suite be the primary tool for businesses across the world.
I did have a fundamentalist, in one of my former churches, who was convinced the Apple Logo was a sign of Satan...the bite mark and all.
Free-Will Calvinists invented Windows 8. You have all kinds of choices…but not really.
Amen to that.
Meh, better to stand corrected than rabbit-trail on which is the more correct spelling....
Actually, he's incorrect. *Everything* is neutral -- until you or I pick it up and do something with it.
That hammer in your tool drawer? It just sits there, neutral, until you pick it up and use it for selfish purposes like hanging a picture of yourself on the wall; or for murderous purposes, like bashing in someone's head; or for uplifting purposes, like helping to build a house for someone in need.
Music that uses uplifting melodies - can be used for bowdy bar songs, or worship. Consider: How hard is it for a "Weird Al Yanokovich" type to take "Amazing Grace" and turn it into a pornographic rendition?
But if we're going to try to actually come up with distinctions about which melodies are "approved" for worship, and which aren't -- well, let's just go the way of the Church of Christ and everyone sing acappela.
Although, we'd still get into this argument, because our own voices create melodies, so scratch that idea....
I don't know what to tell you, other than re-read Romans 14, and let God lead.
It sounds dissonant to us because they divided up the frequencies in their scales differently. Their math is different and the result is different ratios from note to note. They don't really have the concept of an octave even. But, I'm sure it is beautiful to them, with western music sounding like pure noise. That's the entire problem with conversations like this, people think THEIR music is normal and correct, everything else is weird and/or evil.
Seems to me that this same line of reasoning could also be applied to the so-called "logic" of many of the extreme KJVO advocates. :smilewinkgrin::tear:
Really?
When was the last time a hammer pounded a nail without a hand lifting it?
When was the last time a piano played itself? Or a harp? Or even drums, for that matter?
Music is created by the musician. There is no music without a musician. Music is used to convey a message; but it is the musician who puts the tune together, and plays the notes that tug at hearts or cause hands to cover ears.
Music itself? There is no such thing. Just as a hammer needs someone to wield it, music requires someone to make it.
Just as someone can use a hammer for good or evil, a musician can make music for edification or to elicit darker urges. Music can do nothing without the one who plays the notes.
Just as a hammer is a tool for creating or destroying, music is a tool for conveying a message of hope or despair--but it is the musician that creates the message, not music.
Yes music is used to convey a message, and it does so without words, don't believe me? go watch an old black and white movie, notice when they use different types of music to develop feelings of humor, sadness,etc... and all WITHOUT WORDS.
Rock Music and Ragtime were mainly a genre produced to promote carnality, the musical style itself was created and without the words it still sends a message of carnality, The original artists that pioneered these genres were using it for carnality and there's a reason why it fits so well with carnal wicked lyrics, because that's what the style was originally intended for, you cannot divorce the carnal message it sends with just the music, you can try and deny that the music itself sends a carnal message all you want, but that does change the reality that it does. The music itself elicit can elicit darker urges without the words. I use to do drugs, and I listened to music without words, but let me tell you the message was plain and clear, for example electronic dance music, sends a message of sex and drug highs. I find it quite interesting that you can hardly find a music with immoral lyrics played to a style like found in John Newtons Amazing Grace, yet Rock Music, and Ragtime is filled this, though not exclusively.
The bible says Can two walk together except they be agreed, Just because you slap John 3:16 on a bottle of alcohol, that does not change the nature of alcohol, Try putting John 3:16 on a bag of cocaine and then tell me that it's not carnal anymore.. yet you seem to think this works, you seem to ignore the fact that music has a nature WITHOUT the lyrics. Music manipulates emotions, there is certain types of music that cause feelings of sadness, fear, courage, and also LUST, this can all be done without words. Are you really going to sit here and try and tell me you REALLY believe music is amoral and neutral?
I don't care what all these people say on the Baptist Board and I don't care about all these arguments you come up with, you strain at gnats and swallow camels, repent of this wicked flesh feeding position you have on music, you people defend your music out of completely selfish desires, it's all about having your tastes and what pleases you, that's why people always get so defensive when it comes to music, I highly doubt you really care about listening to music that reflects the character of God and brings him glory when you sit here and try to defend the wicked idea that all music is amoral, it's all just an attempt for you to defend self pleasure. Let's be honest, if you really cared about the Lord, even if I was wrong about this music, you would still put it away for the sake of unity and not offending your brother, but CCM people don't do this, it's all about self and what YOU want, the fact that the CCM crowd gets so defensive and that they so mock and jeer at the conservatives on this side of the issue says a lot about the spirit they have. It's so clear as day that this is all about having the leeks and the onions of Egypt while trying to feel like your serving the Lord. It's all about worshiping the idols of this world under the pretense of it being done for Jesus.
This Philosophy makes me sick because I believe it is a horribly disgrace to the Lord Jesus Christ, My Savior and his holiness is not reflected by wicked Rock Music, Hip Hop and other genres of music that have come straight out of the pits of hell.
You can come up with fancy argument all you want, But deep down inside if you ponder your heart and pray in earnest asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you about this,search the scriptures, and do a study on the history and effects of music, I am convinced you will end up on my side of the argument.
If I offend you with this post, it means your convicted and need to repent.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Don was SO undeserving of such a diatribe.
You blame music like gun control advocates blame guns.
Until you realize it's not the music, but the person making it, you'll continue to strain at gnats yourself.
Find a copy of "Music for Prague1968" and give it a listen. You most likely will condemn it for its discordance through much of the piece--unless you realize it's a reflection of the discordance that was felt by the people when the Russians marched in and took over. And the piece ends with a very strong overture with heavy beats--symbolizing the spirit of the people of Prague, that they would persevere.
Re-read Romans 14, my friend. The chapter is about meat; but the principle ia about offending weaker brethren who choose to be almost legalistic in their identification of what's acceptable and what's not.
Perhaps you're right, and I'll have to answer to God on this matter. Or perhaps God will ask you, "why did you forbid My chidren to worship Me?"
if Scripture condemns Homosexuality, can we then choose to appeal to Romans 14 and say "Well I think it's ok for me, if you judge me you are being legalistic"
no you would say it's clearly defined in scripture that it is abomination.
it's the same with this issue,
Love not the world neither the things in the world, be not conformed to this world, if your a friend of the world than your at enmity with God.
Conformed means to pattern yourself after the world, yet that is exactly what CCM does, it sounds like the world, many of the artists even look like the world, in fact many of the CCM artists themselves admit that their musical inspirations are the world, we have a genre called CCM that is mainly the doing of a bunch of Christians (at least they claim to be) who are copying the world's music.
Tell me how that is not being conformed to this world, and tell me how that is being Holy and separate as God commands us in many places in the bible.
So if a Christian synthesizes cocaine and slaps a Jesus label on it with the intention of people taking it and getting excited at church, that makes it sanctified and good to use according to your logic? because the only thing that matters is the person making it right? the substance or nature of what they create doesn't matter right?
Or if a Christian makes pornography and holds up bible verses in the backround, that somehow sanctified it and makes it ok to worship God with?
The bible says they that worship God must worship him in Spirit and in Truth.
If I take say a a death metal song written about killing babies and glorifying sin and it has an angry sound to it, and I take out the lyrics, (which you can't even hear most of the time anyway) then by taking out the lyrics have I then removed the appeal to the sinful flesh? because that is the position you hold to...
or does it retain it's appeal to the flesh?
You and I both know the answer the question.
"They that worship God must worship him in Spirit and in truth"
You can't worship God in the sinful flesh, yet that's what happens with CCM, it's not God you're worshiping, it's the emotions of the flesh.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I think I've come up with an adequate explanation of how I feel about it. Think of it the same way we think of the English language. We have "bad words". Take the "F" word, for instance. Is it really bad? It's just a word. But the world has taken it and made it its own. Sounds can't be bad. But you put those sounds together and make the "F" word, and Christians have a cow.
Music is no different. A tune can't be bad. A distortion can't be bad. A bass kick can't be bad. But you put the sounds together in the proper way, and you have something that the world has taken and made their own.
"We're taking this music back for Christ! It was his first!" Well so was the "F" word. No disrespect meant to anyone here, but if you think music is totally amoral, then you have to follow through with the conclusion that the sounds making the "F" word are also amoral, and it's OK to say.
"But that word has an attitude attached!" Ditto to music. "But that word is associated with evil!" Ditto to music.
Basically, I agree that music is amoral. But there is some that should be stayed as far away from as possible. Like the "F" word.
Another example: people would go crazy if a pastor cussed while he preached, but then explained, "I'm just trying to be hip with the younger crowd."
Music is no different. A tune can't be bad. A distortion can't be bad. A bass kick can't be bad. But you put the sounds together in the proper way, and you have something that the world has taken and made their own.
"We're taking this music back for Christ! It was his first!" Well so was the "F" word. No disrespect meant to anyone here, but if you think music is totally amoral, then you have to follow through with the conclusion that the sounds making the "F" word are also amoral, and it's OK to say.
"But that word has an attitude attached!" Ditto to music. "But that word is associated with evil!" Ditto to music.
Basically, I agree that music is amoral. But there is some that should be stayed as far away from as possible. Like the "F" word.
Another example: people would go crazy if a pastor cussed while he preached, but then explained, "I'm just trying to be hip with the younger crowd."
Jordan - would we have death metal music if no musician would play it?
If no, then it's the person putting the notes together that you need to address. In fact, you have addressed it by saying "sinful flesh."
Woody's analogy is very good: if no one used certain words, we wouldn't have profanity. Legend has it that the "f" word was originally a legal term; but someone used it in a different context and gave it a new meaning.
One cannot speak of music as if one can find it growing on trees, or randomly lying on the ground somewhere.
Music is communication. It is an intelligent act, not an object. It doesn't exist without a hearer, whether that hearer is the musician himself or someone else. But the Scriptures have many things to say about the manner and character of our communication.
So, my question to you would be, is there a style of music today that you would say is antithetical to a Christian character and demeanor?
