Are Old Fashioned Baptist Churches shrinking?

I believe you misunderstood me. I was commending you for not being condemning in your posts.

 

Sin is brought about by being creative. To create is to bring into mind or do something that is NEW. If we do not take the initiative to do something we believe to be creative, then we cannot sin. We have His Word and we are told to Preach His last gospel He gave to man. That gospel came from Him in heaven.

Evidently that is not enough for we now decide we are to be creative, that is to actually believe we are the creator, and can create something new.

The problem is the word that is being used, i.e. we are to create. There is only one that can create, and we know it is not us. Change the word we are using, then we can take what God gave to us to aid in "spreading the gospel of Paul", but we ourselves cannot create anything.

 

so then, what do you do with the Psalmist's phrase, "Sing unto the Lord a NEW song?"

We're just not gonna agree on this. When we sing the "Hallelujah Chorus," the words come from God...but he used G.F. Hanel's creativity to pen the score.

God created us in His image. We are creative beings.

I stand by my words. And when we do anything creative...song, written word, illustration, object lesson...then according to you we've sinned...because we've "diminished the Gospel." I think it's entirely possible to preach the Gospel, use creative means to do so, and still honor God and reach people through the process.

 

l saw things in your post that pointed in the other direction, but as you say your intention was otherwise I stand corrected, and do apologize.

You are a good debater and I like your humor. He has chosen every one of us, and I doubt any two are alike, other than in our love for Him. We each stand our ground come "Satin or high water", yet we can be moved if He chooses.

 

Well said, sir :wavey:

 

The Parables of Jesus come to mind as well.

 

rbell, it is you who are defining the issue as one of "creativity." I am not sure that is what I would have quarrel with if I were framing the issue myself.

Here is what I see when I go to many churches: The dramatic lighting, the set-like physical layout, the segues from one little vignette or performance to another, the printed programs, the rehearsed (or worse, canned!) music, the smooth personas, the pre-written dialogue, literally everything that happens, is based on concepts borrowed from the theater, or more specifically from television. In fact, many churches are theater at its best. The whole production is pitched to the "audience," not toward God. What is supposed to be a worship service is transformed into a convivial morning talk show, or worse a religious Johnny Carson Show. I once was in a church the Sunday before Christmas where they had all the kids standing on a some sort of a platform singing to form a human Christmas tree! The entire thing was worthy of Hollywood! We have made the front area of our churches into a stage and ourselves into an audience.

If you go to such a church, it might be difficult to imagine what the alternative could be, we are so used to the way things happen on TV shows anyway that it may seem perfectly "natural" to us, so let me try to come up with a scriptural example. When you close your eyes and imagine the scene at the sermon on the mount, does your mental image accord with the way things happen in church? Do you see six disciples entering stage left and six disciples entering stage right, each holding a candle aloft, while a chorus of children sings on a Christmas tree shaped platform? If not, then we should reconsider how things are being done.

Don't attempt to provoke emotion in me with pretty music or rehearsed production numbers, smack me in the face with the gospel! It ain't supposed to be entertainment!

 

We are to keep it in perspective, proving scripture with scripture. If we drop down a few verses in Psalms 33, we find to WHOM this applies. Verse 12, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Don't we find in Deuteronomy 9:26 the prayer for God to not destroy His people, and His inheritance".

We must keep this in context realizing who is the Lord's chosen nation and who will inherit the earth. There are a number of references in the Book of Psalms of a New Song, and they fit like a glove with the Book of Revelations that is written to God's people. Match what you can find in prophecy as spoken in the Psalms, with prophecy future in Revelation chapter 5 of those promised the earth, noticing it is they that will reign on the earth.

If you are reading any of my posts please notice it is God that created the scriptures and not me. I can only point out what He has shown me.

No we don't agree, but that doesn't mean salvation lost, for in our faith we are to work out our own salvation, and I doubt any two agree on too many things.

Do agree Handel used what God had furnished. God created Handel. Handel did not create the song, and he did not create himself and his talent. God did this. It is impossible for us to create anything, for all we can do is use what God has created, not thinking we are the one creating in our own right. You have a talent? If you are using it, then that is why He created it in you.

We sin only if we take credit for what God has created. So count me in as one of those sinner's as I sit here and type out these words as I create a new post that has never been seen before. So I think as you often; but then sometimes I catch myself and say, "this is not new for God knew when He created me, I would be posting this post new to me, but not to Him.

I praise and thank God for at the Cross all my sins were taken care of, both large and small. We're in the same boat in rough waters, but this boat can't be swamped.

 

Hmm. Seems like He wrote a book called "Numbers." Nah, I must be wrong! :laugh:

Mt 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
Mt 15:38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Hmm. Pinoybaptist, could you be wrong possibly? :tongue3:

 

Those folks were not a church. They are just some people who turned out to hear Jesus preach in the first instances!

 

But the Lord was concerned enough to mention the numbers Jesus preached to. And yes, those mentioned in the book of Acts became church members: "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47).

While I believe that the glory of God comes first, and numbers are right to consider only when they glorify God, it seems quite myopic in view of the Scriptures I've mentioned to claim that God is never concerned about numbers. In fact, at a minimum, those who oppose evangelism and missions should feel that God might want to reduce the numbers--but He still keeps track.

If God ignored numbers, He wouldn't be omniscient now, would He? "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30).

 

I am still reading through this thread so forgive me if I am being redundant, but this post sums it up in a nutshell, IMO. I attended a youth pastor's summit this past Thurs. and Friday, and I was, frankly, shocked by some of the statistics I heard. For example, 10 years ago 88% of teens considered themselves to be Christian compared to 55% of teens today and that 61% of teens drop out of the church once they move past the youth group stage. These figures are alarming to me and also very telling in some ways. We don't have to water down the gospel but we still need to find new ways to reach out to people, especially the younger generation. They are the future and we are losing too many of them, imo.

Good posting Joshua!

*all stats were compiled the Barna Research Group

 

How do you reconcile this with Matthew 15:3-9? Church does not have to be just about amusing people. It is possible to give clear, concise, biblically sound messages but still in a manner that appeals to people. I am in no way saying tradition is wrong or discarded, but change is not always bad.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

Thoughts that come to mind -

1) Was the preaching of Jesus 'culturally relevant'? YES! His message was always geared to the audience- Jew or Gentile, man or woman, Pharisee or tax-collector.

2) Did Jesus use 'methods' to draw a crowd? YES! Miracles. Of course we know that miracles were a sign, but man, could they also draw a crowd. I don't suppose that was a surprise to our Lord.

3) Was Jesus creative in his presentations? YES! There are 29 parables recorded in the Bible. Each one was for the express purpose of illustrating a point or lesson to His audience in a way that they could understand- or not, as the case may be.

In a nutshell- there really is 'nothing new under the sun'.

 

Creativity is not limited to modern churches.
The churches that still use lined out hymnody were creative at one time.
They CREATED a way to sing since people could not read.
In other words they were culturally relevant at one time.
The culture couldn't read, so the church met that need and came up with a way for illiterate people to worship.

But now because it has been done that way for hundreds of years to suggest that they try something else causes some to say we are suggesting they compromise their standards... Which are not standards at all, but merely man created traditions that were started to praise God.

 

Thanks for casting your experiences and opinions on all of us. It certainly doesn't make you appear judgmental or disparaging in any way.

The fact is, you're better off in your church. If you came to mine, you'd probably find most of these things you've mentioned. I'm not going to debate that with you, as you have pretty much offended me with your entire paintbrush approach. I see nothing wrong with good lighting so people can see, a sound system that allows people to hear, and (God-forbid) excellence in the music ministry. I know nothing draws me into the presence of God like trying to sing a hymn while the pianist is "muddling through."

This argument is NOT about numbers, but it's impossible to seperate the two. How many people have joined your fellowship in the last year? How many have said, "I must join this body of believers, because they've got exactly what I need... a smacking in the face!"

 

Sorry you don't like my definition of "creativity." I guess Mr. Webster was wrong.

so...let me get this straight:

• A well-lit stage is evil.
• A big stage is evil.
• Bulletins are evil.
• Recorded music is evil.
• Dramas are evil.
• Anything that looks like anything ever done dramatically or that has been recorded on video is evil.

Wow. Remember what Jesus said about the judgement by which you judge...

Well, now sister...you are sinning, if you follow your own logic. Reasons:

• You meet indoors...Jesus spoke outdoors.
• Do men and women sit together? If so, you're wrong...they didn't in the first century.
• Do you use any amplification? If you use a mic, you're sinning, because Jesus didn't.
• Are you wearing 20th century attire? If so, you're wrong, because these folks had 1st century garb.
• Do you have indoor plumbing? Wrong again, if you do.

You're imposing your preferences, and selectively imposing first century guidelines in worship. Now...since I don't follow your logic, I think what you do in your worship is fine.

Your dig at my church is not the least bit appreciated. I get a bit steamed when someone who has never been to my church decides to lecture me about how I'm dishonoring God in my worship.

 

So you recognized your own church in my little description! Did I ever say "your church"? I have no idea what you do in "your church." If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider. The scriptural pattern for worship is just as simple as it can be made.

Glad what I said hit home.

 

OUch.....
That was sharp.

 

Worship should be giving God our best...
not a shoddy performance.

The musicians should be the best they can be.
So should the singers.
The sound man should do his best,
as should the one in charge of lighting.

God gifted them... it is not right for you to say they are not worshipping God by using the gifts they have. That is very presumptuous.
Don't call something evil that God has called good.
And I know God has called our worship good. He has approved it, no matter what you say. You are not God.

If an artist paints a picture for the glory of God, it is worship.
If a photographer takes a picture of the sunset for the glory of God it is worship.

If dancer dances to the glory of God it is worship.

Simple is not always Godly.
And Godly is not always simple...
look at Solomon's temple... just a simple shack I suppose.