Are Old Fashioned Baptist Churches shrinking?

Yes, just think how much more effective Jesus could have been had He had a "sound man", a "dance team", a "worship band".

 

Junior Hill was once told that people will repsond to his alter calls better if he would preach in blue shirts. He told this individual that he is sure the disciples would have wanted to know that.

 

:laugh::applause::thumbs:

 

Actually, I didn't recognize my church in your invectives. I recognized a pharasaical tone that Jesus preached against.

If it convicts you, you will hopefully reconsider.

The scriptural pattern for prideful judgementalism is just as simple as it can be made.

 

That is actually true. Just recently, archaeologists unearthed one of the earliest known portraits of Peter, James, and John:


:laugh: :laugh:

 

John have you considered one of David's great sins highlighted in II Samuel 24? It is the numbers game. When God was dealing directly with His own, judgment took place in the dispensation they lived. God will again deal directly with all so we each brace ourselves for that day we stand before Christ to see what of ours will be burned. I hope I am not left naked before him.

I believe God holds charges against the Baptist churches, as well as others as they wish to record and look at those big figures in their ledgers to see just how good they are in brining in the numbers. Is this "carnal" or is it "spiritual" count?

If David sinned in the eyes of God, what makes us think we are above David? God knows how many He has baptized, and how many are his. All we can know is about our self. We leave the numbers to Him as His Word works.

Eight souls out of millions or billions in the dispensations Noah lived? We are told at that time, it will be as in the days of Noah.

All spoken only to His people, those of the "Kingdom Church". There were hundreds of thousands or millions of God's people in Judah, and Israel. From our standards this is a puny count, and God thought so too as the "Kingdom at hand" is going to be put-off in order for the purpose of God to come about. They "stumbled" in order for us to hear.

James, a man in the "Kingdom under Law" that will inherit the earth. We see in this section of Acts Paul will do anything to "gain the Jews", even come under the Law to gain them (I Corinthians 9:20), but we see God said nothing doing Paul; I will not let you go back under bondage of law for your love of your people that you had killed, beaten, whipped, and harassed. I will not let you make that blood sacrifice.

Christians do not do those laws and ordinances that are only for His people in their belief. God is going to get Paul to Rome to spread his gospel to the whole world whether Paul liked it or not.

 

I hope I will get only more strident on this issue. We really need to stop and THINK! What are we doing? A STAGE in church (well lit or not!)? And it is actually being called it that, too! A sound man, for the love o' mercy?!??!?

 

What do you call the front portion of the church where your preacher preaches? Some call it a stage, some platform, pulpit, holy desk.. etc.
Some churches even have curtains they pull for plays and such!!

OH MY...NOT A PLAY IN CHURCH!!!!

And yes, some churches have sound people... some even associate with us here on BB.
Why, some of our churches have electricity, indoor plumbin, and copiers!!!
We no longer light lanterns to see, and we have A/C in the summer and heat in the winter...We no longer write with feathers, we actually have these thangs called ball point pens.

We have glass in our windows, and an electric piano, electric guitar, No Organ though, we have DVDs, TVs, and a fully furnished kitchen. (complete with that new fangled thang called a microwave!!!)

God intends for us to use the technology that is developing to reach more and more people.
My son is my media manager. He runs my powerpoint that I use when I preach. He also controls some videos and and music we use. I've even written music videos to be used with some of my songs.

Do you intend to tell me that our church is wrong for reaching out and providing the means to reach more people for Christ?

I dare you... because you will then be going against the will of God. For he has given us everything we use, and is blessing us for using it!
(50% new growth in one yr) OOOppps sorry, I guess that would disqualify us from belonging to the "holy remnant"

I guess you would be against PowerPoint also?
What about tapes to the shutins.. ooops CDS or DVDs now...
And MP3s for podcasts...
My sermons converted to flash so that people that have to miss church can still see them on our website.
What about church chatrooms... we just had a Bible study online a couple weeks ago in our chat room.
We also have an online forum where we have ongoing Bible studies...

But we are such sinners huh?

I'll tell you what... describe what an average Sunday morning worship service is like for you. What do you do in Church?

The Bible says that the more you have the more you are responsible for.
We are living in a generation where anything is possible with technology.
If you don't use everything you got to reach souls, God is going to ask you why. He is going to hold you accountable...

I want to do everything I can to keep someone out of hell, everything.
Do you? or are you stuck in 17th century style worship that is not relevant to modern man?

OH< and before you think we are some big church in the city, we are not.
We are a small country church that is determined that with God all things are possible. (Average worship attendance 60) Ah, man, theres that number thing again!!!

 

Hi Mexdeaf. Most definitely "culturally relevant", narrowly defined. Jesus attracted all men and women, but He only preached His message of the "Kingdom" to His people, and healed only His people, except on few occasion's as we see in Matthew 15:21-28. He had no "dealings with the Gentiles", unless absolutely necessary. We find this avoidance of preaching directly to, or at such as me, is carried through to Acts 10, and then by hand shake the Apostles later say they have not (Peter one time forced to), and will never preach their circumcision gospel to the Gentile - Acts 15, and Galatians 2.

We cannot change scripture to suit our purposes.

Jesus used the Intercessor, the Comforter. As you say He was not surprised.

God is truth, and God speaks truth to His people.

Amen!

 

What do we do in church you ask? Along about 10:30 one of the brethren stands up in the front of the aisle and calls a number. He or someone else pitches it by ear and starts off and we all join in, 4-part harmony. After two hymns he calls someone else who repeats, and so on until 11:00 or so. No instruments BTW. Then one of the brethren offers prayer, and whoever is preaching gets in the stand and starts off preaching using a Bible and his vocal cords. After about an hour, around noon, we sing another hymn and everyone goes around shaking one another's hand and greeting the preacher. Then we have a final prayer and go to the other building to get lunch ready. This is more or less how baptist worship was for centuries up until recently.

The last time I had this discussion with someone it was over a sign advertising "clown-led worship" in front of a non-Baptist church. I said I thought it was unscriptural to have a clown lead worship. Was I being pharasaical? The person told me that whatever would bring people in so that they could save their souls was legit. I said why not have an exotic dancer lead worship, then, if it will pull the masses in so we can save their wretched souls? Bound to be more effective than a clown, right?? Believe it or not the lightbulb came on at that instant and they jumped at the idea! I hope it is not happening even as we speak. So that argument does not wash with me any longer, I am afraid. Once we start relying on our own wisdom in matters of worship the battle to keep worldliness of the church is lost. God told us, pray, preach, and sing, and that oughta be enough.

I am strongly supportive of the regulative principle of worship. I think we can see where things lead when man follows his own idea of right and wrong in pursuit of a supposedly "good aim." For the things that seemeth right to a man... I am sure you can see the qualitative difference between having an automatic coffeemaker in the lunchroom and having a clown leading a worship service. so I won't waste words. Clowns, stages, and sound managers are fine, but not in a worship service. To the degree that a church service entertains, it is no longer worship.

 

Thank you, and to that I agree.
Worship is about HIM... not us.

Thank you, I have never experienced PB worship.

 

Tiny, I am not saying that is the only way to do it. In fact even in PB churches there is some variation, and that "Texas two step" bit where men each get to pick two songs I think is limited pretty much to Texas and Arkansas, from what I have heard. The point to me is that with worship, less is definitely more. And an attempt to follow the scriptural pattern is always appreciated by me, however its done! And no fine production values to steal the show from the simple word of God and the true focus on God that comes from singing songs oneself.

Ezekiel 43:10
Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

 

"Ouch" Not too sharp, but tearing.

 

Yes, I've considered David's sin. His sin was in counting selfishly and for his own glory rather than God's glory, not in counting, since at other times God commanded him and other OT kings and generals to count Israel and/or the troops.

As I said in my previous post to Amity, numbers should be for God's glory and not ours. There are many places in Scripture where God Himself counted or commanded to count, including the whole book of Numbers, so obviously the act of counting in and of itself is not a sin, and can be for God's glory.

Does your church have a list of members? If so is that unspiritual counting? I think not.

Funny, I thought God commanded us to baptize. (Unless, like Pinoybaptist, you don't believe the Great Commission in Matthew is for us. ) Last time I baptized I don't remember an angel coming down and saying, "Okay, John, God sent me to do this instead of you."


Again, every single time a soul is saved that is for God's glory. So if I say, "God brought revival and five folks publicly confessed their faith in Christ," I believe that is to His glory.

Noah's story is a great encouragement to me, since I live and work in a "Gospel-resistant" country. However, I keep track of how many tracts I get out, for example, since my supporting churches have a right to know if I am being lazy and taking their support for naught. Is that type of counting sin? I think not.

We will have to agree to disagree on theology here. I believe Paul and James were on the same team in the church age.

 

Since you described yours, let me describe ours.

skip Sunday School, go to Worship at 10:45..

If you were a visitor to our church, you would get out of your car, go through the front doors, there you are greeted by a greeter...and you will see people everywhere talking, and enjoying one another. After you find a seat you would be swamped by people welcoming you. We absolutely love visitors!!!

You would then notice announcements either in the bulletin that you were handed, or on the wall up front. (via PowerPoint) I lead the service also.
I welcome everyone, and give the most important announcements outloud. We then have a bidding prayer where I start the prayer out, and name categories for the congregation to say a name or a sentence or whatever the Holy Spirit puts on their heart. I will say something like, "Now we lift up the names of those that are sick" you would then hear people from all over the church joining in the prayer.

After this the choir sings the call to worship song.
Then the congregation sings.
Then the offering is taken up.
Doxology is sung... ( I have surprised them with other songs!)
Then the youth leader sometimes has the children sing, or sometimes has a children's story to tell.. (I think I get as much out of this as the children do!!!)

The Children are then dismissed to go downstairs to childrens church, while we shake each other's hands, and welcome everyone, or as someone said earlier... "love on people"

We then sing a praise song (modern) with the lyrics on the screen from the PowerPoint or on the back of the bulletin.

I then get into my sermon. I always try to start with an illustration that would be relevant to my sermon. Sometimes it is a video clip, comic strip, news article, funny story, or I might sing a song... just something that is relevant to the sermon and to get the attention and keep it for the sermon... Then I go right to the scripture and the pastoral prayer.

I have different styles of preaching. Most of the time I just use the 3-4 points out of the scripture, expository.. or sometimes I go for topical, very rarely I use the storytelling approach, as I am just not that comfortable with it...
But the main points of my sermon and the scriptures are all projected by the powerPoint. (my son running it. He has gotten used to my sermons, so he knows when to advance the next slide ... This also keeps him alert to my sermons, instead of the girls!!!!... ol dad is using his head here!!)
The older people with failing eyesight and hearing love the powerpoint. For they can see the sermon, and scriptures in type that they can read.
(BTW, God used powerpoint... remember the handwriting on the wall...lol OK bad joke)
I will preach about 30-35 minutes.
Then give an invitation. (I'm sure that is different from the PBs, right?)
I don't drag it out, but as we sing, the opportunity to pray at the altar is there if the Holy Spirit draws them.

After the invitation, I again thank the people for coming, and close with either me praying a pastoral prayer, or one of the other men praying. This is between noon, and 12:10.

People then get up and are supposed to leave... but lately they have seemed to stick around just talking and fellowshipping.
Some Sundays we have a basket at the door for people to give to specific missions or missionaries we support.
We also have on some Sundays special poems read, songs sung, skits, etc. not for entertainment, but to direct people's thoughts to God.

There is one lady in the church that loves to play the flute and she is practicing playing the praise chorus now so she can play it for the first time in church in the next few weeks... (BTW, this is a song that Joshua, here on BB wrote! Beautiful!!) she is willing to use her talents to praise God, and help add to our worship experience.

While we make sure the sound is right, the lighting is right, and such it is not to add to the entertainment of the service, but if the sound is not right, the people can't hear. If the lighting is not right, the people can't see the powerpoint.

Everything we do is to help people worship God..
It is not a showy atmosphere, but one of unified worship with reverence to God...
and if you are ever in my part of WV, feel free to stop in.
or I welcome you to go the sermons page of our website to see a sample of a PowerPoint sermon I have preached.

 

Yeah, I apologize... that was mean...
I got too carried away...
sorry.

 

We don't have an altar call, but we do "publish an open door to the church" which means an announcement that anyone may come forward and join.

Have lunch! Everybody bring a casserole, church provides the tea, members clean up afterward. Some are probably staying behind anyway because the restrooms have to be cleaned and the church vacuumed, right?

I have no problem per se with the things you say happen (except for the collection plate) and they are all lovely things to do, but couldn't they be more productively done some other occasion rather than take time out of the worship for them? I don't mean to be critical, so please excuse me if it seems that way. If someone has a flute to play, why not do that some other time, for example?

 

What is wrong with the collection?
Don't you take up a collection?
If not how is the church supported?
I am not opposed to different ways... (as you can tell) you may have a better way.
Is your pastor paid a salary?
How are utilities paid?
etc.

And to us everything we do is connected to Worship.
Children singing to God... Worship
Collection... giving to God...Worship
Youth leader telling children story.... (short sermonette) ...Worship
All singing..... Worship
Giving to missions.... Worship
Praying....Worship
Sermon.... Worship
Poems, skits, special songs... directing people to focus on God...Worship.
I have a feeling we disagree on what worship is in a service.

I like your idea of having lunch....
We do that sometimes also.

We also have a custodian that cleans through the week, but yeah, some are straightening classrooms, sanctuary, bathrooms, etc.

I missed the part about the flute when I wrote this, so I am editing the rest of this in.
The flute playing will be accompanying our praise song we sing right before I preach.
As it stands right now, I play an electrical/acousitic guitar to the song.
We have a piano, but no piano player, so we either sing acapella or along with my guitar.

She has been looking for a way to give back to God from her talents, and this will be a perfect way.
God gave her the talent to play, and she is now ready do give it back to Him... To us, that is Worship.

 

No, we do give money, but you have to take the initiative and find a deacon and slip it into his pocket. No one will ask for money. There is no collection. It should all be private. No preacher salary.

Maybe it depends on definition. For example, someone was talking about Handel's Messiah. Now Messiah is a great favorite of mine. I would definitely drive hours to another city to see a good performance of it. But it would never be performed during a service at church! That is just it, it is a performance, it is not worship.

 

amity;
You worship almost identical as we do except I know how you feel on predestination of which we believe man is give a choice. Other than that we worship the same even to the collection of monies, except everyone just brings up to the front their gift to the church what time we are giving out appointments and then calling dismission.
We start by singing for about 30 to 40 minutes and then we have usually a young minsiter not ordained to bring up services and someone will lead prayer. We then have what we call the "meat" preacher come to the stand and he usually is the "doctrine" brother and he preachs for 40 minutes to an hour. Then we have what we call a "closing" brother who is usally a "warm" preacher brother who lifts everyone up in the Spirit if he is blessed by God to close out the meeting. We then give out appointments of other churches meetings and then people give their donations.
We also have a lunchroom attached to the church of which you have to go outside the church and through a door to feed the people after services. I would not let them put the door to the lunchroom in the church because I thought it would disrupt the services.

I forgot to mention, we have no musical instruments either and we "line" our songs.