Are Old Fashioned Baptist Churches shrinking?

Brother Bob,

I would feel right at home in your church, except for that "little" difference we have over predestination and election. I hope you would feel the same way in ours. If you're ever down this way, you're more than welcome to come worship with us. I don't think we have any Old Regular congregations in this part of the state, so you might would have to visit us.:thumbs:

God bless.

Bro. James

PS We don't line out songs too much anymore since everyone has a song book with shape notes. A cousin of mine, Elder Harold Horn, who is 85 years old, is about the only person left around here who can really line out a song, the old way. I wish we would do it more often, during big meetings and such, so we don't lose it. He is getting old and the last time I heard him asked to line one, he couldn't because he forgot the words to the lines that weren't included in the song book. Maybe I ought to come over there to KY so I can take some lessons from y'all.:laugh:

 

Bro. James;
I would make you most welcome at our church and would do my best not to get on predestination
I plan on putting some "lined out" songs on my web site soon, so you can go there and hear them. I have just songs on there now but they are not lined.

This may surprise you but after reading amity's post I was thinking if I was in Texas I would probably have to go to the Primitive to feel at home. The only thing is though I couldn't preach and sometimes I get the urge and I am sure you know what I mean. I don't have preacher's itch but do get hungry at times to just preach.

BBob

 

This is for Bro. Bob, Amity and any other Old Regulars or PB's. I am really enjoying learning about your church services. I have never been to any like them, but they sound very simple and wonderful. I wanted to ask you guys about sunday school. Is that something you don't do? I love the worship service at our church and they are always God centered and simple, but my favorite part of church is sunday school because we talk about scripture with one another and we learn so much. It's also a good way to get to know one another on a more personal level and pray together as a small group. Anyway, I was just wondering if you guys have S.S. at your churches.

Here is the link for my church if you're interested.

http://meridianbaptist.net/

 

Most PBs do not have Sunday school. I keep qualifying everything I say with "most" because there are so many types of PBs who are not in formal fellowship with each other who have other doctrines and other orders of service, etc. Some, called "progressive" who are mainly black churches DO have Sunday school and musical instruments. There are even Arminian PB churches, I was amazed to find out a few months back. Some PBs believe in the absolute predestination of all things. Some are... well, just all sorts of PBs out there.

I have read a little bit about baptists in England in the very olden days, like 1600s, and they seem to have had the same basic ideas and way of worshipping as old order Baptists (PBs and Old Regulars, etc.) do today, though with some differences. In the U.S. in the late 1700s and early 1800s it is very much like old order baptists today. I guess that is why we are called "old order" Baptists!

 

Hi Amy;
There was a time many years ago they had Sunday School among the Old Regular Baptist but it was did away with and we have the children sit in on the adult meetings and singing. Of course they sure take their part in the lunchroom. At out Association building we have up swings sets and such for children.
Not too long ago, we did not have lunchrooms at our churches. People prepared dinner at their home and would take so many home with them. Back then I think the children learned more about the church than they do today and sometimes it worries me. If parents don't have their children go to church and let them stay home then we lose out on our future membership.

BBob

 

Thanks guys. I like the lunch part! Lot's of good fellowship enjoyed during a meal. Baptists do love to eat! Or is that southerners?

Bro. Bob, I've been to your website and you're a good singer!

God Bless

 

Bro. Bob,

It's hard not to get on predestination, at least for me.:laugh:

I know how you feel about preaching. I will go to meetings sometimes and feel so full that I want to burst, but I don't get preached. I might have to preach to the folks in the car on the way home. Of course, I don't get upset or jealous if I don't get put in the stand. The Pastor of the church where the meeting is has the responsibility of choosing who to preach, and I trust his decision and that he believes the Lord leading him in such a way. Then, of course, there are times I go to meetings dreading that I might be asked to preach, and then I am! Hopefully, I will be instant to preach the gospel, even if I am scared to death, but it sure does feel better to get in the stand with the burning desire and a scripture or two on my mind than to get up feeling empty. I pray that the Lord will continue to deliver me in such situations.raying:

Besides, if I get feeling the urge too much during a service, I can (and you can) always shout! A good Spirit-moved shout during a sermon can be overwhelming...and contagious.

Brother, you are welcome to worship our Lord and Savior with us at anytime you so desire. I think the main (and perhaps only) difference you will find in our practice is that our songs are sung a tad faster than y'alls.:laugh:

 

Yes...the book of Hesitations does prohibit the construction of an elevated place for the preacher to stand. Everyone knows that the only Godly way to preach is to stand on a hillside like Jesus did...in a robe, with men and women seated separately.

And I had forgotten...the book of 1st Confusions does prohibit the use of amplification. And 2nd Confusion 3:99 says, "Should thou needest a microphone, thou mayest not, God forbid, use a person to adjusteth the volume."

Sorry about the translation...I was only able to find the 1769 revision of Hesitations and Confusions.

**************

Two scriptures (from actual books now):

I Peter 4:11--
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

That one sums up my feeling about folks that serve in our church as we corporately worship Him together.

Matthew 12:21-32--

The lesson from this one: Be very, very, very careful. Jesus was quite harsh on those that took a God thing and assigned it to the realm of Beelzebub. I'm not asking you to like our worship style and approach. But it has been prayed over, it has been laid before God, and it is something we constantly ask for God's guidance on.

Don't like it? Fine. But when you start to say, "That's not of God," you are treading into pretty dicey territory.

What we are doing here is God-honoring, and God is blessing it. I would stake my life upon it.

I have several friends who are PB. I've attended one's church a while back. We've had several good discussions, and agree to disagree. One of them "returned the favor" and attended our church a few months back. He didn't like how the service was set up, but he did say at the end that he thought God was honored in the service. We both went away from our visits having learned something.

 

Yes, Brother Bob has a wonderful gift for singing. I would love to hear his gift for preaching one day.

Amy, there is a sub-forum on here for Baptist history. I have read some of the posts there and it is very interesting. If you have any questions about how all these different types of baptists came to be and what the issues were there would be a good place to ask.

 

rbell, I am sure neither one of us would say that anything that is not expressly forbidden by scripture is allowable, would we?

And besides, we aren't under the law. The point is, are we following the N.T. example in worshipping, or adding to it at will?

 

I think God gives us a conscience, Biblical principles, and the Holy Spirit for discernment in what is allowable that is extra-Biblical (VERY different from UN-Biblical). For example:

• Wet T-shirt contests at church: Not addressed specifically, but quite wrong.
• Electric lighting and indoor plumbing at church: Not addressed specifically, but quite nice to have and all right.

At my church, twelve years ago, the folks who voted to build our sanctuary decided to have an elevated place for the preacher to stand. We call that a "stage" in Alabama. We would have this "stage" even if we didn't have various instrumentalists and other folks up there. Why did we do such an awful thing? So people could see.

In addition, we have another abomination: a "sound man." This fella makes sure that the 1,000 or so folks that come on Sunday can hear the Word of God (as well as other stuff--but he'd do it if all that was done was preaching). He also commits another extra-biblical act--he records the message so that those who cannot come can also hear.

I'm sorry you think things such as this are wrong. Perhaps we could run off enough folks so that a stage and amplification would not be necessary. Then, we could have deacons commit the entire message to memory, and could go and deliver said message to our homebound folks and nursing home residents.

On second thought, being as God has directed us to where we are now, we'll just keep listening to Him, thanks.

 

No one is arguing against lights and plumbing. That has nothing to do with worship. You misunderstand the point.

We have the same thing. We call it a "stand." No one performs on it.

Do you hold a separate worship service afterwards especially for him? In my estimation, it would be better by far to split into 20 different churches of a size where everyone can participate. If someone has to be providing child care, someone else tending the sound system, someone else choreographing the kids group, then things seem to have gotten way out of hand? Not a single scriptural precedent for that sort of thing.

We also (sometimes) make tapes for homebound people, and for a record. Again, we aren't Amish and the technology is not the problem. I think you are again misunderstanding the point. I don't think I ever quite said "wrong" in the sense you are using it here. You perhaps just don't know what you are missing. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to be free of all that stuff and just have a sermon-on-the-mount type of experience? Just sit and gather the manna as it appears? The whole thing reminds me of Mary and Martha somehow.

 

I guess I should call that teen back that called me tonight, who was excited almost beyond words. He had led his friend to Christ, and was just about ready to bust! What was his connection with that friend? He was teaching him guitar...the Christian teenager helps lead worship on Wednesdays. Oops, sorry...he performs on our stage. Forgot that he was doing it to glorify himself.

Amity, since you think my church is wasting God's time, I shall not interact with you any more on this issue.

It's too bad our poor, pitiful bunch of backslidden believers are doing a third-rate church, and don't get ALL of Jesus.

I'm quite thankful that I've had fruitful and enjoyable discussions with other PB folk here. I shall not hold your attitude against them. And unlike your attitude towards my church, I am quite thankful that God is using our brothers and sisters that are PB to honor Him and reach others with the Good News.

It's just that I hate to think of all the scores of folks that have had their lives transformed by Christ while attending our church. Could you imagine what God could really do if we weren't wrong in everything we've been doing all this time? All that spoiled, rotten manna they've been getting.

Wow. "The Pharisee and the Publican" still rings true today.

 

I never said any of those things, rbell. You are raising a straw man.

 

When we first moved to our current location, we had two break-ins at the church. One happened in the sanctuary and the other happened in the kitchen/dining room. They are 2 separate buildings. Nothing was stolen either time. The police officer on the scene, who was the same guy for both break-ins, said that crooks love to break into churches to steal sound equipment, instruments, and other mechanical/electrical equipment. Since that break-in occurred, no more have. I guess the thieves realized we had nothing worth stealing (or getting injured over). The one who broke in the sanctuary got all cut up from the broken window he came through.

Aside from biblical arguments, I am glad we don't have all that equipment I named. If it was stolen and replaced, it would likely have been stolen again later, unless we packed it all up after services and someone took it home, which could lead to it being damaged in the move or being stolen from the home.

I have no problems with a raised platform so the preacher can be seen or a microphone and speakers so the preacher can be heard, although that's not typically a problem with most of our PB preachers.:laugh:

I do not object to anything that would aid us in our worship of the Lord. There is no reason we should have to be uncomfortable or inconvenienced (too much anyway) by being without a/c, indoor plumbing, padded pews, sound system (if needed), etc. My objection comes when things are added specifically to the worship service which has nothing to do with simple worship itself. I know, you all believe these sorts of things(special programs, instruments, side shows, you get the idea) are part of worship, so there's no need to argue that point.

Without dressing up like 1st century shepherds and fishermen, and meeting in caves and on hilltops, we should try to keep our worship service as close as possible to the way Christ set it up. He gave us a perfectly good and righteous way of conducting his worship service, and we ought to follow his example in singing, praying, and preaching.

I fear that, if you took away children's church and Sunday School for the kiddies, instruments and special programs (of the school production sort), and other fun and exciting things, you would lose many folks because they are there just for the excitement and the fun of those things outside of preaching, praying, and singing. Now, it probably wouldn't happen en masse, but I think you would see some people leave. How many people today would sit through a church service without any glitz or glamour? Only those who are truly there to worship their Lord. I am in no way condemning anyone's church here, but pointing out what I think is a reality. Why is it that old-timey churches are typically small and contemporary churches are typically large? If the same doctrine is being preached at both, then people are there for something else, and I think being entertained, and possibly having a babysitter for junior, is the difference.

I am content to be entertained by the gospel. I wish everyone was.

A word of advice, take it if you want, and if not, then leave it. When we as sinful creatures add practices to a perfect worship style, set up by the Lord himself, all we are likely to do is take away from it. Why is it sinners, myself included, are always trying to improve upon something that was perfect the way it was established? Why do we feel the need to try and entice people in using all sorts of means? I myself have been tempted to try new things to get bodies in the seats, yet I realize that anything I might do to "improve" the church and make it appeal to others would only damage our cause. Our cause, as the church, is to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified, nothing more and nothing less. That, in and of itself, is as simple as it gets.

I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone with my comments. That is in no way my intention.

God bless.

Bro. James

 

Yes, Bro. James. And you know what happened to those two guys who reached out to steady the ark! The Lord will provide for His church.

A church I used to be a member of once had a break-in. They stole our coffee maker! It was all they could find to steal ....

 

Btw, I think another big reason or differences arises in our reason for being in the church.

Many churches that have things contrary to what most PBs would have believe that they are saving people from hell. Therefore, they are willing to use these means in doing so. Since PBs do not believe we can save people from hell, and our only goal is to worship Christ in spirit and in truth, we fight tooth and nail (sometimes too much) over anything that seems to be taking away from that. Certainly, we want others to come in and worship with us, and even join our church through baptism, but we are not concerned with attracting non-believers in so they can get saved and accept Christ.

I think much of our differences in worship stem from that premise.

Just my thoughts.

JR

 

Precisely. I know with all my heart that those men just "knew" that they were doing right by God. Why in the world would God want His ark to fall to the ground, after all.

Likewise, I never try to doubt or disparage anyone for worshipping God the way they think they ought. I will kindly admonish them in the Lord, as I think I have done here, but I don't wish to browbeat people with my beliefs in hopes that it will change theirs. God could have easily kept those men from touching the ark, but He didn't, for whatever reason. I believe they went to heaven too, after He took their natural lives from them.

In lieu of getting caught up in what other churches are doing, especially those with whom we would not fellowship anyway, I think we are doing well in keeping our churches as close to the old paths as possible. If and when God chooses to move on His child to worship in that old simple style, I am confident He will do so, and we will still be here for them.

Hope all is well.

Bro. James

 

Yes, I am glad that I have not really seen very many people who want to change things and start having pancake suppers on Wednesdays or something to try to increase the church. Really, things are not changing.

 

Have not been able to locate scripture where God today speaks directly to all the Baptist churches, through their "Conventions", or otherwise. Are we of David, and of God's nation today, we Baptists?

I notice injected twice the phrase "God commanded". Does God command today? Jesus Christ commanded two things, and today makes one request of us. God gave "commands" to His "covenant people", and I can find nowhere that he ever asked or desired the Gentile make "covenant with Him". We are offered the "gift".

For what purpose is it necessary for us to count other than for "numbers" for our own benefit? It would be moronic not to do so, and that is what my church does.

I have missed scripture that says we today are to count our numbers for "spiritual reasons". Are we going to report this information to God? God adds to His Church, and we add, or subtract figures in ours. In Conventions, or congregational meetings what is discussed? Is it not our numbers, the baptisms into our church, the denomination, and the financials? It is our preaching that is to be spiritual and it goes forth to the individual heart, not to save a nation but one into the "Body of Christ".

I can find nowhere that He commanded us today to baptize for salvation. His last "great commission" to His Apostles and disciples were all of Israel, and it is a "Kingdom to come" they look for as it is their inheritance. Baptisms of the "great commission" were only done by the hands of those of His nation. You are correct in recognizing the possibility I don't believe the "great commission" was written for the Gentile's benefit, other than for a proselysation into the "Kingdom Church".

As that "Kingdom Church" began to fade as shown in Acts, we see the "Body Church" begin its growth, as baptism's were done without hands, after their spiritual circumcision, and sealed with those stampings.

Was Paul told to "baptize", or was he told to preach the gospel of the grace of God through faith, with no work at all necessary? I understand water baptism is dogma of the Baptist church and every other denomination, and most all cults. We cannot all be correct, and I know the Catholic church is not for they believe it is "they with their hands, that have a hand in saving one being baptized". They believe they have been given this authority by God, because God does not send anyone down from heaven, so they must have the Power just as did His Apostles, and disciples, by the use of their hands.

But is that what we Baptists are to believe, and is this then truly in our doctrine? I thought it was to accept that one that was saved and baptized into the "Body of Christ" Spiritually, and then later be baptized into fellowship with others by the hands of man into that local Baptist church.

Amen!

It's common sense.

For arguments sake I'll agree here with that terminology, for they both are of God. However before the teams come together, one "team" plays to enter A specific Kingdom, and the other plays entering The Kingdom, which that specific Kingdom will be in. It is no contest as Christ wins both, inherits that is.

Don't we find James is destined to be in the Kingdom that Jesus Christ gave to His earthly Apostle's, where the proselytes will serve the Jew? I do not believe the gospel of the circumcision, as my Apostle tells me Christ gave to him a gospel for me. That gospel speaks of me being in the Body of Christ in His Kingdom of Heaven, in which is housed the Apostle's Kingdom. Jesus tells His Apostles they may come and eat with Him at His Table, in His Kingdom, where we are.