Daniel David
New Member
BTW John, it is your position that is under fire. Why don't you defend your position, if you can?
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Are only IF Baptist going to be part of the bride?
- Thread starter Bro Ben
- Start date
NOTICE
This topic has ran five pages, much of which has generated more heat than light. I am hereby notifying each of you that I will close this topic after it reaches the sixth page. Please get in your closing arguments and try to be civil.
rlvaughn, Moderator
This topic has ran five pages, much of which has generated more heat than light. I am hereby notifying each of you that I will close this topic after it reaches the sixth page. Please get in your closing arguments and try to be civil.
rlvaughn, Moderator
My only other response to this thread is that I believe the Whore of Babylon is the system of apostate religion and commercialism.(The Roman Catholic and protestant apostates
"having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.")
My understanding of apostasy from scripture is as follows:
1Timothy 4:1 " Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron,...."
11 Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Hebrews 3:12" Take heed, brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
I can not and I will not account the charge of apostasy to great men of the faith such as Whitefield, Wesley or Edwards. I will not consider any born again believer, despite denomination or ignorance of scripture to be apostate or part of the whore of babylon .
To do so would be attributing this verse to brothers and sisters in Christ....genuine children of God:
REVELATION 18:3" FOR ALL NATIONS HAVE DRUNK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF HER FORNICATION, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH HAVE COMMITTED FORNICATION WITH HER, AND THE MERCHANTS OF THE EARTH ARE WAXED RICH THROUGH THE ABUNDANCE OF HER DELICACIES."
18:7"HOW MUCH SHE HATH GLORIFIED HERSELF, AND LIVED DELICIOUSLY, SO MUCH TORMENT AND SORROW GIVE HER: FOR SHE SAITH IN HER HEART, I SIT A QUEEN, AND AM NO WIDOW, AND SHALL SEE NO SORROW."
18:24:" AND IN HER WAS FOUND THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, AND OF SAINTS, AND OF ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH."
No apostate will enter heaven or the New Jerusalem , so it is nonsense to me to attribute apostasy to anyone that is a born again believer.
If one is not even biblically baptised(by immersion)....that will not differ...salvation comes by repenting and believing....(not method of baptism).
If I have offended my brethren by this post, I sincerely apologize....we have human minds and fallible understanding....
One thing "I" know for certain, God has saved me and I will dwell in the House of the LOrd forever....I'll see ya there.....
"having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.")My understanding of apostasy from scripture is as follows:
1Timothy 4:1 " Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron,...."
11 Timothy 4:4 "And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Hebrews 3:12" Take heed, brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
I can not and I will not account the charge of apostasy to great men of the faith such as Whitefield, Wesley or Edwards. I will not consider any born again believer, despite denomination or ignorance of scripture to be apostate or part of the whore of babylon .
To do so would be attributing this verse to brothers and sisters in Christ....genuine children of God:
REVELATION 18:3" FOR ALL NATIONS HAVE DRUNK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF HER FORNICATION, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH HAVE COMMITTED FORNICATION WITH HER, AND THE MERCHANTS OF THE EARTH ARE WAXED RICH THROUGH THE ABUNDANCE OF HER DELICACIES."
18:7"HOW MUCH SHE HATH GLORIFIED HERSELF, AND LIVED DELICIOUSLY, SO MUCH TORMENT AND SORROW GIVE HER: FOR SHE SAITH IN HER HEART, I SIT A QUEEN, AND AM NO WIDOW, AND SHALL SEE NO SORROW."
18:24:" AND IN HER WAS FOUND THE BLOOD OF PROPHETS, AND OF SAINTS, AND OF ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH."
No apostate will enter heaven or the New Jerusalem , so it is nonsense to me to attribute apostasy to anyone that is a born again believer.
If one is not even biblically baptised(by immersion)....that will not differ...salvation comes by repenting and believing....(not method of baptism).
If I have offended my brethren by this post, I sincerely apologize....we have human minds and fallible understanding....
One thing "I" know for certain, God has saved me and I will dwell in the House of the LOrd forever....I'll see ya there.....
DocCas
New Member
sar·casm n. 1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound. 2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule. American Heritage Dictionary.So, your intent was not to lie, but to wound, hold me in contempt, and ridicule me, and you think that is a good thing?
You did. Accepted.
Once again you seem to be having a problem with the truth. I don't brow beat anyone. It was you who, without provocation, held my faith up as contemptable, worthy of ridicule, and set about to inflict a wound (see "sarcasm" above).
See above response.
See my response regarding "sarcasm."
You seem to want to forgive but not forget. Is that really forgiveness?
That is very good as I have done neither.
None of which has been called into question by me.
DocCas
New Member
So then, are you saying that no person can be part of an RCC or Protestant church and still be saved? When God says to His people to come out from her (the Great Whore, Mother of Harlots) is God confused?Originally posted by Carly33:
My only other response to this thread is that I believe the Whore of Babylon is the system of apostate religion and commercialism.(The Roman Catholic and protestant apostates
Straw man argument. Nobody on this forum has made such a claim.
Again, if a person is a member of the RCC or a Protestant denomination, according to you he/she can't possibly be saved? It seems to me you are more quilty of what you are accusing me of than I am!
Nobody on this forum has done so.
Nobody on this forum has made any contrary claim.
DocCas
New Member
It seems to me that it is you who has failed to support and defend your position. None of the verses you posted makes any reference to the church starting on the day of Pentecost, nor of the church being universal and invisible. The scriptures you quoted not only don't support your view, but you seem to be denying the omnipotence and omnipresense of Christ!
There comes a point when it time to shake hands and agree to disagree. I think we're past that point.
But I like to ask one question. How about the 24 elders? Would any Baptist Briders consider them to be Baptist too? I'm not trying to start another fight, but it just seems that they should, assuming that they see the elders as representing the church.
But I like to ask one question. How about the 24 elders? Would any Baptist Briders consider them to be Baptist too? I'm not trying to start another fight, but it just seems that they should, assuming that they see the elders as representing the church.
James3:17,18" But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable , gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy, and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all....
[ April 13, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Carly33 ]
And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all....
[ April 13, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Carly33 ]
DocCas
New Member
Although I am not a baptist brider (I believe in the faithful bride, not a baptist bride) I would answer that by saying the 24 elders are representitive of all of God's people, perhaps illustrated by the 12 tribes representing the OT saints plus the 12 apostles representing the NT saints.
redwhitenblue
New Member
Actually Thomas this bit of info isn't nonsense but actually there is a small sector of "baptist briders" who do actually beleive they are only only ones who will be part of the bride. I have a pastor friend who's family is part of that sector and that is exactly what they believe. This of course is very untrue, and there is no biblical back up for it but they believe it anyway.
karen
karen
DocCas
New Member
Karen, I am aware there are people out there who have hetrodox positions on just about everything (in fact, you can find most of them right here on the BB!
), however, their position is not my position. My position is based on my understanding of what is said, and what is not said, in the bible. The fact that the bible uses the methaphores body, building, and bride to teach local church truth ought not to be challanged by anyone who has actually studied their bible, and it always amazes me when people start attacking me and posting lies about me under the excuse of "sarcasm." It saddens me when my brothers and sisters in Christ show such a disregard for the command of Christ to love one another. God bless.
redwhitenblue
New Member
Thomas, was I attacking you? I wasn't trying to. I was just pointing out there is a small group of baptists who do believe they are the only ones who will be the bride.
karen
karen
Bro. John Willis
New Member
First of all, my position isn't under fire.
My comments on your doctrinal post as previously given commenced with your erroneous summation of Matthew 16:18.
The context of the verse DOES NOT support the supposition from syntax that Jesus was speaking about the origin of church from the future perfect tense. The only thing referred to as future perfect is the coordinated predicate (verb) "will build". From the context given and logically speaking, you cannot build something that does not already exist. This is the major "gaping hole" in the "universal church, body" theory. Scripture does not support it.
Next such a doctrine is not supported by the original Greek as proven by your failure to defend this position using it; a common mishap that all of the major purveyors of this teaching are guilty of doing. There are many, even here in this forum, who are better versed than myself in Greek. Let them give the verdict. The Greek just doesn't say it.
Since this verse, Matthew 16:18, is used in an attempt to give Bible backing to this theory and the verse speaks of the church being built NOT STARTED, your proof-text only proves that the verse speaks of the church being built NOT STARTED. Remember you can't build something that isn't started.
The "universal church" theory WAS NOT the teaching of the Apostles nor those familiar with them in the first and second centuries. History shows no idea of this until approximately the era of the Montanists. It was codified as a Roman Catholic Church dogma at the same time the idea of a "Universal Pontiff (the Pope)" came into being. All of these are matured and well developed by the fourth century and the era of the Donatists. This is also the time of Constantine the Great and Augustine of Hippo. One is the postulator of Catholic political power and authority; the other is the postulator of Catholic religious power and authority. Both were chief founding proponents of these "universal" theories. Christ nor the apostles never taught this kind of thing.
This is why I stated the your statements do not follow one another in a verifiable and logical progression. The story and theory are based upon a faulty supposition and NOT the Word of God. Because of that it/they are and use introverted logic, ..logic that does not prove it's point but only proves that it has a point. In other words its only proof is that it makes its own statement. It is convoluted because the theory and story only and always uses itself as proof of its validity.
I am glad that you have an interest in my Roman Catholic past. Maybe as a brother in Christ you will find it in yourself to continually pray for me as I continue to repel the various attacks that come my way from Satan through her. I don't really think she would lash out so fiercely if I and the beliefs/teachings that I hold were considered of no disfavor to her. She knows and understands that I am not in her, and thank God she is not in me. My congrads and welcome were not mean't to be sarcastic but informative. Rome's present strategy is not to be openly hostile and offensive towards anyone, especially Baptists. She prefers the defensive posture,.. the misunderstood mother so to speak. While promulgating her doctrine and dogma she finds sympathy for herself and support for her position. Her position historically, has always been anti-Baptist, and she has the Inquistion under her belt to prove it. When you agree with her on any of her false doctrine she knows that eventually you will join her, if only indirectly. So she says...Welcome!
Your brother
John
[ April 14, 2002, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Bro. John Willis ]
Hello, there, Mr. Cassidy, sir.Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
I posted the relevant scripture from Revelation 17 and 18, just read it. God says to those members of the Great Whore, the Mother of Harlots, "come out from her my people." You either believe the bible or you don't. It is decision time.
I don't remember if it was on this board
or another forum that I once remarked "God's children may be found even among Muslims, unreached and unevangelized tribes, the communist states, etc., etc." and some of them will not hear the gospel in their entire lives and still wake up in heaven one day thanks to God's mercy and the blood of the Lamb.In another part of the book of Revelation the Spirit thru John speaks of a great multitude that cannot be numbered who came out of great tribulation from all nations, kindreds, tongues.
Carly, I agree with you. In Rev. 17 & 18, the church (Bride) has already been raptured, therefore cannot be referred to as part of the great harlot. The "come out" from among is talking about remnants of Israel still scattered. In fact, it could be argued by some, that the Great Harlot is not Rome (ecumenical church as I've always heard preached), but NYC which certainly fits all the description, including home of UN. It certainly fits the theme of world religion--as the world's religion seems to be obsession with material goods, stock market, 401K, and the rest.
But, at any rate, I wonder if some of these theological differences are because some of us are Independent/GARBC Baptists, dispensationalists, pre-trib, and other sectors of the Baptist faith apparently are not. Also, I recognize that just because the name of a church says Baptist, it does not necessarily mean it is Baptist in core beliefs.
I know of an ABC who didn't preach on Revelation because the pastor didn't understand it. I know of a SBC who does and interprets end-time prophecy as Independent Baptists do.
In fact, I have been amazed on this Baptist BB to find some way out theology posted as Baptist which I've never heard of before. Such as smacking down of Scofield, Israel is not God's chosen people, and more...and I've been Baptist almost all my life!
Bride of Christ---there will be a lot of people included in the Bride who aren't Baptist, and my guess is there will probably be some Baptists who don't make the cut.
I will never cease to be amazed at some of the posts on this board.
But, at any rate, I wonder if some of these theological differences are because some of us are Independent/GARBC Baptists, dispensationalists, pre-trib, and other sectors of the Baptist faith apparently are not. Also, I recognize that just because the name of a church says Baptist, it does not necessarily mean it is Baptist in core beliefs.
I know of an ABC who didn't preach on Revelation because the pastor didn't understand it. I know of a SBC who does and interprets end-time prophecy as Independent Baptists do.
In fact, I have been amazed on this Baptist BB to find some way out theology posted as Baptist which I've never heard of before. Such as smacking down of Scofield, Israel is not God's chosen people, and more...and I've been Baptist almost all my life!
Bride of Christ---there will be a lot of people included in the Bride who aren't Baptist, and my guess is there will probably be some Baptists who don't make the cut.
I will never cease to be amazed at some of the posts on this board.
Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Bride of Christ---there will be a lot of people included in the Bride who aren't Baptist, and my guess is there will probably be some Baptists who don't make the cut.
I will never cease to be amazed at some of the posts on this board.
I just took a look at your profile and noticed you are in a Bible Baptist church.
Does your church belong to the Bible Baptist Fellowship ?
No offense, but in my old country, the Philippines, most churches belonging to the BBF believe and preach the Baptist Bride theology.
I used to also, until God revealed His elective grace thru His faithful preachers and then I realized God has His elect everywhere.
As a matter of fact, the BBF churches over there preach that after the Rapture there will be no more who will be saved because by then the Holy Spirit has been taken up.
Salvation will go back to Jews.
Yes, most are dispensationalists too.
cheers
NOTICE
On the fifth page I gave notice that I would close this topic when it reached the sixth page. Well, here we are. Pinoy has asked an informational question of Eagle. I will give about ten more minutes, in case Eagle is online. Then, I will close this topic. If I have closed this before you get a chance to answer, Eagle, you can answer Pinoy by private message.
Thanks all for your participation and cooperation.
[ April 15, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
On the fifth page I gave notice that I would close this topic when it reached the sixth page. Well, here we are. Pinoy has asked an informational question of Eagle. I will give about ten more minutes, in case Eagle is online. Then, I will close this topic. If I have closed this before you get a chance to answer, Eagle, you can answer Pinoy by private message.
Thanks all for your participation and cooperation.
[ April 15, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]