Are people Condemned Due To Unbelief, Or That "In Adam" and are sinners?

[Iconoclast]

Now Iconoclast, how are we able to be enlightened from God on and of such a simple truth, wherein others miss it by a landslide?

Why is that?

How do they miss it, yet we haven't?

Guess thats why you live in the "show me " state...:laugh::laugh:

1Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

10Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[webdog]

skan,



So according to you and your statements in this post.....the heathen who never hear the gospel...so cannot reject the gospel......he does not need to be saved, because he does not even know about Jesus, sin, or the gospel.

Interesting.....

when you deny romans 5 truth.....error takes place

Based on what you quoted Skan on, this should be filed under "complete strawman". For the last time, we do not deny Romans 5...we deny YOUR interpretation of it which is NOT immutable.

Scandaling...you got the Augustinians on you like white on rice

 

[webdog]

Guess thats why you live in the "show me " state...:laugh::laugh:

[/COLOR]

You have taken the questioning of our salvation to an alltime low. You should be proud.

 

[TCGreek]

well tc.....maybe more posts like this will have you re-considering your recent theological shift:laugh::laugh:

You'll have to elaborate. :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Let's read Romans 5 with care:

16 And the gift is not like the one man's sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification. 17 Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.

Suppose you committed a crime and were given a fine you could not afford, but as an act of mercy the judge paid that fine for you. The judge says to you, "Your fine has been paid in full, so you don't have to serve prison time if you will simply apologize for your crime." In rebellion you refuse to admit your crime so the judge sends you to prison. You are NOT going to prison because of the crime and fine you owed, because it had been paid. You are going to prison for your rebellion against the judge and his gift. Same is true in salvation. People are condemned, not because God refused them, but because they refused God.

 

[preacher4truth]

If anyone is keeping count, I've presented numerous verses to say verbatim the reason that men are condemned.

"they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!"

"because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

"because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

"very word which I spoke will condemn him."

Can those who think it is the sin of Adam that will condemn them please (1) explain how these verses are being wrongly interpreted, and (2) supply your own verses which explain your position verbatim?

(Note: if you want to discuss the issue of those who never hear the gospel start a new thread because that is a complex issue that would derail this particular subject)

Unbelievable. Your theological platform is in jeopardy.

To you, and your misunderstanding of a simple theological truth, until one hears and rejects, is one only truly condemned.

Unreal. That is serious error and misunderstanding of truth on your part.

If this is true, quit preaching, all men are safe and will be OK so don't give them a reason to "not believe" and then "become condemned."

Mankind is already condemned. What you argue is contrary to Romans 10 that men need to hear to be saved, who are men already condemned.

No wonder there is so much disagreement seeing this basis and platform of your theology concerning your view of mankind in the world. To you, and a logical conclusion of what you state, men are safe right now and only become condemned after they hear and don't believe. This is contrary to the truth that man is already right now condemned!

I hate to use this word, but will: Nonsense! (to what you've said.)

Man is already condemned. You thus err.

 

[preacher4truth]

You have taken the questioning of our salvation to an alltime low. You should be proud.

He never questioned anyones salvation, but you scour the BB looking for such things.

Try studying context. Thanks.

 

[quantumfaith]

Unbelievable. Your theological platform is in jeopardy.

To you, and your misunderstanding of a simple theological truth, until one hears and rejects, is one only truly condemned.

Unreal. That is serious error and misunderstanding of truth on your part.

If this is true, quit preaching, all men are safe and will be OK so don't give them a reason to "not believe" and then "become condemned."

Mankind is already condemned. What you argue is contrary to Romans 10 that men need to hear to be saved, who are men already condemned.

No wonder there is so much disagreement seeing this basis and platform of your theology concerning your view of mankind in the world. To you, and a logical conclusion of what you state, men are safe right now and only become condemned after they hear and don't believe. This is contrary to the truth that man is already right now condemned!

I hate to use this word, but will: Nonsense! (to what you've said.)

Man is already condemned. You thus err.

You have not shown your case yet, all you have done is allege Skan's post and theology as wrong. If you are indeed a pastor/teacher, then teach him where he errs.

 

[preacher4truth]

You have not shown your case yet, all you have done is allege Skan's post and theology as wrong. If you are indeed a pastor/teacher, then teach him where he errs.

I've done that.

Man is already lost, man doesn't become condemned only after hearing and not believing, he is already there.

Is man already lost, right now, who haven't heard, who is also not saved? Yes or no? If not, then why do they need to be saved?

Why go assail the poor innocent ones in Africa who haven't heard, only to bring these to condemnation because they didn't believe, who formerly weren't condemned until we told them the message?

Well, there aren't any innocent ones in Africa, and the reason we go preach to them is because they are already condemned and on there way to hell now.

If you don't get that, then I am done, and you'll never get it.

If you believe Skan, then quit telling others, as they are safe and not condemned. That is the illogical conclusion of what he is teaching.

Man is lost and condemned already, thus we preach to them.

 

[Iconoclast]

You have taken the questioning of our salvation to an alltime low. You should be proud.

Wd,
Do not get paranoid on me.

Based on what you quoted Skan on, this should be filed under "complete strawman". For the last time, we do not deny Romans 5...we deny YOUR interpretation of it which is NOT immutable.

Scandaling...you got the Augustinians on you like white on rice

There is no strawman here, nor augustine my friend...just the Apostle Paul

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Your comments as far as it goes...qualify in your own words as TROLLOING
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This last part is all who have died in Adam......do not re-define it with a webdogism.......just understand and believe it!

 

[JesusFan]

EXACTLY what they are implying!

It's as if said are teaching a person is not lost until after they hear. What fallacy! Then, those who never hear really aren't lost yet. Serious error and incomplete thought!

They are already condemned.

To teach as they would be to cast out that the truth the whole world outside of Christ is lost.

- Peace

Unless they hold to that when God was in Chrsit reconciling entire World to Himself...
Interprete that as meaning we all start out once again on a "level playing field" before God? He forbades past sins and does not hold them against us, until we reject Jesus than fall under being condemned? Either that or deny original Sin, being in Adam etc!

 

[preacher4truth]

Unless they hold to that when God was in Chrsit reconciling entire World to Himself...
Interprete that as meaning we all start out once again on a "level playing field" before God? He forbades past sins and does not hold them against us, until we reject Jesus than fall under being condemned? Either that or deny original Sin, being in Adam etc!

Uh?

What?

Whatever you just said needs clarified.

And there is no excuse for one believing mankind is only condemned after disbelief. Man is already condemned now. Lost, on way to hell right now.

 

[glfredrick]

Let's read Romans 5 with care:

16 And the gift is not like the one man's sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification. 17 Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.

Suppose you committed a crime and were given a fine you could not afford, but as an act of mercy the judge paid that fine for you. The judge says to you, "Your fine has been paid in full, so you don't have to serve prison time if you will simply apologize for your crime." In rebellion you refuse to admit your crime so the judge sends you to prison. You are NOT going to prison because of the crime and fine you owed, because it had been paid. You are going to prison for your rebellion against the judge and his gift. Same is true in salvation. People are condemned, not because God refused them, but because they refused God.

I bolded a few other lines in the text that you cited from Romans... You seem to miss those when you have these sort of discussions.

 

[JesusFan]

Unbelievable. Your theological platform is in jeopardy.

To you, and your misunderstanding of a simple theological truth, until one hears and rejects, is one only truly condemned.

Unreal. That is serious error and misunderstanding of truth on your part.

If this is true, quit preaching, all men are safe and will be OK so don't give them a reason to "not believe" and then "become condemned."

Mankind is already condemned. What you argue is contrary to Romans 10 that men need to hear to be saved, who are men already condemned.

No wonder there is so much disagreement seeing this basis and platform of your theology concerning your view of mankind in the world. To you, and a logical conclusion of what you state, men are safe right now and only become condemned after they hear and don't believe. This is contrary to the truth that man is already right now condemned!

I hate to use this word, but will: Nonsense! (to what you've said.)

Man is already condemned. You thus err.

if this is true, than shouldn't we NOT send out the Gospel message. lest they hear and stand codemned?

 

[Iconoclast]

You have taken the questioning of our salvation to an alltime low. You should be proud.

Webdog,

Try to interact with the thread for a change...instead of looking to twist words and accuse those you do not agree with.

read your last 20-30 posts and see if you are giving positive imput to a thread...or just assuming things and looking to be divisive.

If you feel you cannot interact biblically...pass by the thread.
Do not get caught up in your hyper-sensitive world where you see every post related to augustine, or people investigating everyones salvation, or whatever else you are coming up with.

What is your response to the issue in this thread???

my first response to Skans op stands. It has to figure in to the discussion.. If skan wishes to modify , or clarify his post...he can....we are not going to shoot him:thumbsup:

Webdog,,,in addition if you re-read the thread my response to P4T was not intended to question skans state before God...it was meant to answer p4t question to me about God given light in the gospel....stop trying to be a keyboard rambo...and engage in the discussion/debate. Have a nice day my friend.:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

Now, am I allowed to laugh?

"Keyboard Rambo?"


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I haven't laughed this hard in a long time!!!!


THANKS!!!!!!!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

I bolded a few other lines in the text that you cited from Romans... You seem to miss those when you have these sort of discussions.

Perhaps only "we" were to read this "with care?" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

Uh?

What?

Whatever you just said needs clarified.

And there is no excuse for one believing mankind is only condemned after disbelief. Man is already condemned now. Lost, on way to hell right now.

Just was stating that those holding that man is condemned by unbelief, might hold than God indeed reconciled ALL men back to Himself Himself by the Cross, all start out clean playing field, and that unbelief is when judgement comes! And they also tend to deny effects of original Sin!

 

[preacher4truth]

if this is true, than shouldn't we NOT send out the Gospel message. lest they hear and stand codemned?

That's what I said. Thus their fallacy here is exposed.

We have many people for years that have heard the preacher say "People are going to hell FOR rejecting Christ!" and not conclude this as error, and then take him out an feed him lunch.

Uh, no. They are already heading there right now.

Some pride needs to be swallered, then one will see and admit this to being erroneous thought and doctrine.

I smell beef. Did someone shoot a sacred cow?

:laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

That's what I said. Thus their fallacy here is exposed.

We have many people for years that have heard the preacher say "People are going to hell FOR rejecting Christ!" and not conclude this as error, and then take him out an feed him lunch.

Uh, no. They are already heading there right now.

Some pride needs to be swallered, then one will see and admit this to being erroneous thought and doctrine.

I smell beef. Did someone shoot a sacred cow?

:laugh:

Know that some have answered that they hold to God doing "hardening" to the jews in times of Christ, to blind them to Gospel so that they would refuse and Gentiles could get grafted in... "Judicial hardening"

Almost like they DO hold to DoG but ONLY in special cases, as in Gospel and times of Christ!
Jesus called those who rejected Him though children of the Devil...

Aren't ALL of us such unless God saves us and brings us into Kingdom of His son Jesus Christ?