Are People who "used" to be a Christian still saved?

[mprivett]

Corinne said: But you are not saved until you are actually dead!
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There is a sense in which we are finally saved upon physical death, at glorification, but that does not change the fact that the elect are, in fact, saved from before the foundation of the world. Election renders regeneration certain, which in turn renders justification certain. There are many examples in the Scripture of someone having been saved. Are we not saved when Paul writes that, having been dead in our trespasses and sins, God made us alive by His grace?


Corinne said: While you are alive you are in a state of potential salvation you do not know if you are going to remain a Christian all your life. To have absolute confidence that you will is OK, but we must be humble and acknowledge that we live in a world of sin and there is always a possibility that we can fall and fail. This is why we must live one day at a time, and make sure that day ends with us still in that state of potential salvation. If we believe to the end, no problem, we are then effectively saved in the after life. But if we were to become unbelievers, lose faith, then in my opinion, we would lose our salvation.
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This logic makes salvation a work of man. "If we only believe enough and can muster up enough faith. If we really, really mean it we'll be saved." This goes completely against Scripture. If it is God who justifies (Rom. 8), how many times does He do it over the course of a human life span? Do we jump in and out of justification? How powerless does that make God? Poor God wants to save us but we keep floundering. What's a God to do? NO, not at all. He's God! He is Sovereign over ALL things, including salvation, of which He predestines us, electing those who will believe from before the foundation of the world, and holds them until glorification. Sheep don't become goats and goats don't become sheep. There are lost sheep (those who are elect but haven't yet come to faith), but they are sheep. They WILL come to faith.


Corinne said: Only God knows which ones of us will effectively be saved. As the Bible says, there are a lot of people called, but few are saved.
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Absolutely. God absolutely knows who will be saved, because He is sovereign in it, and affects it from start to finish. Concerning the "a lot of people called, but few are saved," you refer to what Jesus said, "many are called, but few are chosen." I would point out that few are chosen. Something, or someone, outside of themselves chose them for something (i.e. salvation). The called is this verse does not refer to the effectual call unto salvation that God gives to the elect. Many receive the invitations of the Gospel whom God has never "chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" 2 Thess 2:13.

 

[michelle]

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So can a person who once had faith and the promise of everlasting life, lose that everlasting life? Yes!
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No, they cannot. If anyone loses everlasting life once they have received it, then this makes God a liar. We must remember that there were, are, and will always be tares among the wheat, and wolves in sheeps clothing and hirelings, as the scriptures tell us, and also warn us of. The beginning statement on this thread is exactly what happened to my mother. She was never saved, only thought she was, and is now even worse than she ever was, and blasphemies God. Anyone who is saved, does not do this, as noone, or anything can separate us from the love of God. No one or anything is able to pluck us out of God's hands. If we are saved we know it, and are confident of it as the Holy Spirit testifies this with our spirit, and our lives will show forth this toward others and can never believe nor say otherwise. If we are saved, our hearts are cleansed, and our minds are being continually renewed daily into the image of Christ. We become new creatures in Christ. Jesus Christ promised that he would never leave us, nor forsake us. If we fall away, God is able to bring us back. If our hearts are cleansed, and have the Lord dwelling in it, then what comes out of our mouths will be reflective of what is in our hearts also. Those who confess such things as in the first post, are manifesting that they were never saved to begin with. If the Lord was truly dwelling in their hearts, they would not be able to say such blasphemy. By their fruits you shall know them.
Read the parable of the sower.


Diane, I agree 100% and the scripture you provided to show forth the truth concerning this was an excellent verse. Thank you.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[manchester]

If believing in God fully with all your heart and mind is not enough to "really believe," then how can anyone know they are saved? How can anyone know they "believe enough"?

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by manchester:
If believing in God fully with all your heart and mind is not enough to "really believe," then how can anyone know they are saved? How can anyone know they "believe enough"?

It is not a question of quantity (how much you believe it) but a question of, as you rightly point out, "IF".

In an earlier post, I also said that in my view, "IF" you have once believed and then have denied Christ, then everything you believed in (which includes salvation) is a goner. "IF" on the contrary, you die as a believer in Christ, you will be saved.

I do not believe that you are saved 100% when you are still alive and while there is still a possibility that you could, at the last minute of your life, deny Christ and become an unbeliever. Salvation then would not make sense if it meant that unbelievers would be saved after they are dead: they clearly cannot go to the same place as Christians so what happens to them then, if they are saved? Makes no sense to me.

Corinne

 

[michelle]

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If believing in God fully with all your heart and mind is not enough to "really believe," then how can anyone know they are saved? How can anyone know they "believe enough"?
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The scriptures say that those who are saved Know it and are assured of it:


Romans 8

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


We are also sealed from the time of our salvation unto that glorious day as the Lord has said and promised:


Ephesians 1


3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


WE are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased posssession, and unto the praise of his glory. Once we are saved, we cannot lose it. It is impossible. If we can, then there is no hope, nor peace for any one of us, for we must rely upon our own works to keep us, rather than rely upon God having the power and ability to keep us through his grace and faith. We better be sure we are truly saved. If one is truly saved, they will not have any doubts, and will know the peace that surpasseth all understanding.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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In an earlier post, I also said that in my view, "IF" you have once believed and then have denied Christ, then everything you believed in (which includes salvation) is a goner. "IF" on the contrary, you die as a believer in Christ, you will be saved.

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There is no "if" in the equation, and a saved person cannot lose his/her salvation. Those that deny christ after confessing him, MANIFEST that they had not faith to begin with. By their fruits you shall know them. These were/are tares among the wheat. These who do or have done this, manifest that they only had head knowledge, not heart knowledge to which was not mixed in with faith. Jesus said, that even the faith of a mustard seed will grow. Faith does not become lost, nor stagnant, if one has it to begin with. It will grow, because the Lord gives the increase. Those with only head knowledge can be saved eventually, but it must be mixed with faith. If there is no faith, then it cannot grow, and it will eventually become manifest.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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So can a person who once had faith and the promise of everlasting life, lose that everlasting life? Yes!
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No, they cannot. If anyone loses everlasting life once they have received it, then this makes God a liar. We must remember that there were, are, and will always be tares among the wheat, and wolves in sheeps clothing and hirelings, as the scriptures tell us, and also warn us of. The beginning statement on this thread is exactly what happened to my mother. She was never saved, only thought she was, and is now even worse than she ever was, and blasphemies God. Anyone who is saved, does not do this, as noone, or anything can separate us from the love of God. No one or anything is able to pluck us out of God's hands. If we are saved we know it, and are confident of it as the Holy Spirit testifies this with our spirit, and our lives will show forth this toward others and can never believe nor say otherwise. If we are saved, our hearts are cleansed, and our minds are being continually renewed daily into the image of Christ. We become new creatures in Christ. Jesus Christ promised that he would never leave us, nor forsake us. If we fall away, God is able to bring us back. If our hearts are cleansed, and have the Lord dwelling in it, then what comes out of our mouths will be reflective of what is in our hearts also. Those who confess such things as in the first post, are manifesting that they were never saved to begin with. If the Lord was truly dwelling in their hearts, they would not be able to say such blasphemy. By their fruits you shall know them.
Read the parable of the sower......
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle,

If a person loses faith and denies Christ, it does not matter what he believed in before, what counts is what that person believes when it dies. You talk about salvation as if it was a due to everybody who thinks he is a Christian. What counts is what God judges that a person is, not what that person thinks that he or she is. I would feel very presumptuous and arrogant if I started believing that because I believe in Christ today (you cannot judge whether I really do or not because you do not know me), I can then go on in my life, change hearts and deny Christ (frankly, if Peter the apostle managed it, every Christian is at great risk), thinking it won't matter because I earned my salvation????

Salvation is not earned. I believe I am only potentially saved until I can sin no more, which means until my last breath. Everlasting life only has a meaning once you are in the afterlife, that is when you need it. You do not need it in our earth life. The promess of eternal life is enough for me. I do not ask to be saved now because and simply because I believe now. I ask to be saved when it counts, because in the after life, sin will have no hold on anyone dead. It is while you are able to sin that you can choose to not sin and seek salvation, through Christ, because your sins keep being cleansed by his blood and this allows you to fall back on your feet.

I hear many Christians who really have a high opinion of themselves. They should be more humble and not think that they are so pious, because they most likely are not. We are all sinners, Jesus said. Not a single one of us is sin-free.

For a Christian to judge that a person was never saved to start with, when that person has fallen and failed Christ, only shows contemps for the concept of salvation itself, in my view. Who are we to judge that somebody did not believe in Christ before choosing to not believe anymmore (after all it is a choice, that is why God gave us our free will, so we may exercise it)??

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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If believing in God fully with all your heart and mind is not enough to "really believe," then how can anyone know they are saved? How can anyone know they "believe enough"?
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Once we are saved, we cannot lose it. It is impossible. If we can, then there is no hope, nor peace for any one of us, for we must rely upon our own works to keep us, rather than rely upon God having the power and ability to keep us through his grace and faith.

Michelle,

Of course you cannot lose salvation ONCE, as you wrote, you are saved. But you are still on this earth today as we write, and not dead yet, therefore not YET saved. IF you remain a true believer in Christ until your last moment, then yes, you will be saved and nobody will be able to take that away from you. That is the promess Christ made you: believe in me publicly till the end and you will be saved. He did not say: believe in me for a while and then it does not matter. God can keep you in his grace, that is not a problem for him. Can you keep yourself in his grace is another matter? Last time I checked man still had his free will and God does not interfere in man's free willed decisions. If he did and imposed himself, then where would be the hope for you or me? It would not be your choice anymore, but his? What God wants is for his choice to FREELY coincide with yours. You were made to fit God's puzzle, or not. But it is up to you to want to be part of that puzzle and say to God that it is what you want too. Those who do not go that far simply stay outside the frame.

Corinne
http://www.christianresistance.com

 

[michelle]

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If a person loses faith and denies Christ,
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One who has faith cannot lose it. One cannot lose faith. It is God who increases our faith, just as Jesus Christ said:


Matt 13

18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
24. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32. Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
34. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matt. 17

14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.


Peter is an excellent example. Peter denied knowing the Lord three times, but Peter had faith. That little faith that he had grew, as the Lord was able to make it grow. One must have faith:


Hebrews 4

1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5. And in this place again, if they shall enter into my rest.
6. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7. Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


and....


Luke 18

17. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
18. And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24. And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25. For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26. And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27. And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
There is no "if" in the equation, and a saved person cannot lose his/her salvation. Those that deny christ after confessing him, MANIFEST that they had not faith to begin with. By their fruits you shall know them. These were/are tares among the wheat.

Michelle,

Please answer these questions then:

- didn't Peter the Apostle deny Christ three times?
- did he not have faith to begin with?
- what then did Peter's fruits have to do with denying Christ or not (and therefore damning himself - until he confessed and recovered)
- are you saying that Peter the Apostle was a tare among the wheat?

Come on.

A fruitful life helps, it means that you are a better Christian than most. It is not what makes you a Christian or saves you. Lots of unbelievers have fruitful lives, starting with people following other religions who accomplish good deeds. Good fruits are not enough.

Waiting for you answers.

Corinne

 

[michelle]

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Michelle,

Of course you cannot lose salvation ONCE, as you wrote, you are saved. But you are still on this earth today as we write, and not dead yet, therefore not YET saved
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Oh, you may believe that you are not yet saved, but I believe and KNOW that I am saved. How? By the Holy Spirit of God. I am dead. I am dead in the flesh, as Jesus Christ took upon my sins of the flesh in his body upon the cross. I am dead with Christ in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit. I live after the Spirit, not my dead flesh. My glorified body like unto Christs, is still yet to come, to which I long for and hope for, but my spirit lives in Christ Jesus. It is very sad you do not seem to understand this wonderful truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Last time I checked man still had his free will and God does not interfere in man's free willed decisions.
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The saved person, and one who has faith, not only knows this in their heart, and has become the desire and will of that saved person, but always prays and thinks exactly what Jesus Christ told us to pray:


Matthew 6

1. Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4. That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Those who are saved by God's grace through faith, have this in their hearts - God's will be done. We are no longer our own, but we strive continually to do and be in God's will, not our own will. We give up our own will, and live God's will, as we are/were bought with a price.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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What God wants is for his choice to FREELY coincide with yours. You were made to fit God's puzzle, or not. But it is up to you to want to be part of that puzzle and say to God that it is what you want too. Those who do not go that far simply stay outside the frame.
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God wants us to believe in Him by faith. If we have faith, our works will follow automatically. Then we do not, nor can boast in our salvation. Salvation is of and by God, not of our own selves.


Romans 3

20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Ephesians 2

Ephesians 2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Salvation is of God, not of our own selves, nor of our free will. Our free will was bought with a great price through God's grace through faith. We that are saved, are not our own, but God's. Therefore we live unto and for God, not our own selves.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

---------------------------------------------------
Michelle,

Please answer these questions then:

- didn't Peter the Apostle deny Christ three times?
- did he not have faith to begin with?
- what then did Peter's fruits have to do with denying Christ or not (and therefore damning himself - until he confessed and recovered)
- are you saying that Peter the Apostle was a tare among the wheat?
--------------------------------------------------


What this shows us is that Peter DID actually have faith, and that his faith saved him, and the Lord increased it. If he had not any faith, then he would not have recovered and would have been a tare among the wheat, as it would have been made manifest. He did not deny Jesus Christ was the Christ, in fact he was commended by Jesus Christ for acknowledging this:


Matt.

13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


When Peter denied him, he denied to others that he KNEW Christ Jesus, NOT that Jesus Christ WAS NOT THE SON OF GOD. Peter had faith, he just had not been indwelled yet by the Holy Spirit of God, as Jesus Christ had not yet sent the comforter, to who made Peter bold and strong in his faith, and who increased his faith.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[AVL1984]

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I would take it by the above statement that even though one comes to know the Lord and falls away from Him, even our "free will" doesn't take us out of the Father's hand concerning salvation. It says "NO MAN". If we are in God's hand, sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is no way to lose one's salvation. This opens the door to the question then, "Were they really saved to begin with?" For some I would think it was probably true. Most, I would tend to believe were not saved in the first place.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I would take it by the above statement that even though one comes to know the Lord and falls away from Him, even our "free will" doesn't take us out of the Father's hand concerning salvation. It says "NO MAN". If we are in God's hand, sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is no way to lose one's salvation. This opens the door to the question then, "Were they really saved to begin with?" For some I would think it was probably true. Most, I would tend to believe were not saved in the first place.

Amen!

Again, notice that "I give unto them eternal life" It doesn't say "I might have eternal life if I don't sin to some unknown level." When you are given eternal life, you have eternal life from that point on. Nowhere does if say you have eternal life "If you don't stay out of trouble." or some other such nonsense. Eternal life is present tense, starting at the moment of salvation.

Assume a person is saved and in a car wreck and does not remember who he is. He knows no god. He acts like he is not a Christian. Is he, if the particular part of his PHYSICAL brain that remembers his salvation is wiped out in the accident?

 

[cindig]

Corinne,
You say that because we know we are saved and going to heaven is to have a high opinion of ourselves. It is just the opposite, we rely on Christ only, but you think you can do something to obtain heaven. You are elevating yourself to what Christ did on the cross. How can you be an effective witness, how can you give anyone hope when you yourself aren't sure where you will end up? To believe you can loose your salvation is saying that the devil is stronger than God. Wow-you really believe that satan can take you out of the hand of God? If satan can take anyone out of the hand of God, why hasn't he done it yet? Hasn't he been nice to you? That would be a strange doctrine. We are going to heaven by the grace of the devil. God saves us. God keeps us. What has been settled in eternity can never be undone by the ways of men or the schemes of the devil. What do the words eternal, and sealed mean to you?

 

[cindig]

One more thing, the title of this board is People who "use" to be Christians. There is no such thing. There is not one instance in the Bible where anyone was saved more than one time. I can't even imagine living a life never knowing that you will be in heaven. The Bible says to be anxious for nothing, how in the world could you ever do that and not know if you died that without a doubt you would be in heaven. Man, if I believed like that I wouldn't even get in a car. I would need an anti-depressant for sure. Corinne, you will never be good enough, you will never achieve perfection, that is why Jesus died on the cross for you, he knew we couldn't do it. If that wasn't enough, he died in vain. Surely that makes sense to you. I would never think that I had that much power. That is having a high opinion of myself.

 

[cindig]

Corinne,
Do you believe that if someone "use" to know Christ and now doesn't, can they know him over and over?
If that is the way you believe, where is that in the Bible?

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by manchester:
If believing in God fully with all your heart and mind is not enough to "really believe," then how can anyone know they are saved? How can anyone know they "believe enough"?

You should know. But this knowledge is not transmissible to anyone else but you. You can be a believer and yet find that people around you do not really think you are. It is personal. That is why nobody but God being able to see into your heart, nobody but God can judge you about what is in it.

Corinne