Are People who "used" to be a Christian still saved?

[michelle]

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Michelle,

You keep rehashing the same stuff over and over again, it is as if you did not read anything I wrote since yesterday to you. Frankly if you cannot be bothered to discuss rather than repeating the same thing, and since there is no evolution whatsoever in the discussion, I can't see the point of continuing. I am not here to be in an open conflict with you over this, and I am not here to convert you to my belief within my belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was, is and will be. I will be saved, I am just not effectively saved right now, today, only potentially saved. You don't want to discuss about the difference between effective and potential, relative and absolute, fine, let's call it a day. Go on thinking you are safe from evil, and 100% safe and going to heaven, I have nothing against it, sister.

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You continue to rehash the same thing also. I never said I was safe from evil, but I put all my trust and faith in Jesus Christ to keep me from this evil. I am assured by Jesus Christ himself that he will be able to keep me, just as he has said. I believe that Jesus Christ IS MY SAVIOUR, now and forever. I do not believe Jesus Christ will be my saviour. He is presently now, and forever my Lord and my Saviour, from the day HE called me out of my wretched state of darkness and sin, and saved me and brought me into HIS GLORIOUS LIGHT AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that HE has imputed to me forever. I thank and praise him daily for this, and know and trust HE will keep me, even though I may sometimes fail, he is good and faithful to pull me back, as he is the one who redeemed me and took upon himself my sins upon the cross. He knows me intimately, and I have given my entire self to him upon my salvation, as He bought me with a price, a very great price. It is sad, that you do not believe, nor do you seem to know this. I KNOW my Lord and Saviour, AND Know he is able and is also faithful. I trust in HIM - not in myself.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Matt Black]

Corinne, Michelle (and anyone else), what do you think of my 'compromise suggestion' on p3?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Believing in Jesus Christ IS a choice. It is not Christ's own choice, or your neighbour's, it is your personal choice. That you put your life into the hands of God from that moment on, fine, but before you do that, you exercise your own choice: to believe or not.
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Believing in Christ has nothing to do with choice. It has EVERYTHING to do with FAITH. The scriptures say nothing about choice. The is a lie from the devil himself. This is how Satan managed to decieve Eve in the garden. He made her think she had a choice. It has everything to do with faith, and the obediance that comes with faith. Faith is not a choice. It is something one has, but not something someone chooses. Just like love. One does not choose to love another. This is something known and felt when it is there, but not at all a chosen emotion. Love is not a choice. Neither is faith.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

So you believe that your name is, 100% for sure, in the book of life (what only God is supposed to know, you happen to know too?) and that you are way better than all the unbelievers that people this earth and may for example chose to renounce their religion (a Muslim or a Jew for example) and espouse Christianity? If they do that it is not because they are suddenly hit in the face by Christian faith, it is often because they have spoken with Christians, or heard or read something which has turned them towards God.

You have this frightening idea that God imposes himself on people. What must be comforting for you in that idea is that if you believe, then, it must be because you are one of the chosen few (when nobody but God knows who they will be). You may be but then again you may be not. It is not up to God. God leaves you free to follow him or deny him. I do not believe that my salvation is imposed on me, whether I am saved or not will depend on whether I believe or not, truly, in my heart and whether God judges that belief is sincere.

We can agree to disagree.

Corinne

 

[michelle]

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• Our salvation and sanctification are already complete, yet the outworking of both continues until our death (not beyond as per the doctrine of purgatory) or the eschaton, whichever is the sooner; whilst this process is being fulfilled we experience the fruits of our salvation/sanctification, but not completely, both with regard to relationship with God and the ‘blessings of righteousness’, thus death and suffering, whilst restrained to a degree, are still at work in our (mortal) bodies
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Yes, I agree with you. But the point here, being discussed with Corrine, is that she believes that we cannot be sure of our salvation, until the day we die. This is not true. The saved person KNOWS ABSOLUTELY that they are saved. I know this from my own salvation and walk, but also indicated in the scriptures. It is true, that the Holy Spirit of God testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. I do not say we are yet perfect, but we strive to be perfect, as the Lord puts this also in us, to do, (encourages us) as our hearts have been cleansed by Him. We are not automoton's either, but God's love and our faith that he increases is stronger than anything else and overrides everything else once experienced and known. I really fear, that many today do not Know the Lord. They only think they know Him. The Lord Jesus Christ is our personal Lord and Saviour, and we Know HIM also personally. Many today talk about him, as if he were not presently with them. I cannot understand this. as He is personally with me always, even now as I write this. He is not far off in some distant place listening, but right here with me.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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So you believe that your name is, 100% for sure, in the book of life (what only God is supposed to know, you happen to know too?)
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Yes, I Know this for sure. Do you not? Where are the scriptures that indicate we cannot know? What do the scriptures tell us HOW one's name is put in this book?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Matt Black]

Corinne, with respect, your views on our knowledge of salvation seem more Catholic than Baptist to me.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Dr. Bob]

When Jonah was in the whale/fish he realized there was nothing HE could do for salvation. He cried in faith "Salvation is of the Lord".

When we recognize this, the question about believing, turning away, gaining salvation, losing salvation, etc becomes moot.

Salvation is of the Lord. IF God saves me, I am saved. IF God doesn't, I continue my merry lost way to hell.

If a person truly was born again by God's grace, they will be. It is NOT what "they" did, but what God does.

The sad fact is that many who "claim" to be saved or born again are not. They have made some sort of a deal, but they are not saved by God. When they get discouraged or doubt, it is for good reason! They still need to be saved.

Salvation is of the Lord, not Bob.

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle,

You keep rehashing the same stuff over and over again, it is as if you did not read anything I wrote since yesterday to you. Frankly if you cannot be bothered to discuss rather than repeating the same thing, and since there is no evolution whatsoever in the discussion, I can't see the point of continuing. I am not here to be in an open conflict with you over this, and I am not here to convert you to my belief within my belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was, is and will be. I will be saved, I am just not effectively saved right now, today, only potentially saved. You don't want to discuss about the difference between effective and potential, relative and absolute, fine, let's call it a day. Go on thinking you are safe from evil, and 100% safe and going to heaven, I have nothing against it, sister.

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You continue to rehash the same thing also. I never said I was safe from evil, but I put all my trust and faith in Jesus Christ to keep me from this evil. I am assured by Jesus Christ himself that he will be able to keep me, just as he has said. I believe that Jesus Christ IS MY SAVIOUR, now and forever. I do not believe Jesus Christ will be my saviour. He is presently now, and forever my Lord and my Saviour, from the day HE called me out of my wretched state of darkness and sin, and saved me and brought me into HIS GLORIOUS LIGHT AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that HE has imputed to me forever. I thank and praise him daily for this, and know and trust HE will keep me, even though I may sometimes fail, he is good and faithful to pull me back, as he is the one who redeemed me and took upon himself my sins upon the cross. He knows me intimately, and I have given my entire self to him upon my salvation, as He bought me with a price, a very great price. It is sad, that you do not believe, nor do you seem to know this. I KNOW my Lord and Saviour, AND Know he is able and is also faithful. I trust in HIM - not in myself.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Alright, Michelle, but you have no right to say I do not believe, no right at all, you do not know me. As a Christian you should know better. I do and believe all that you describe as well, with the exception that I do not believe that God imposes himself on me, that he is a dictatorial God who has already chosen his few. If it was true, then all the rest of humanity can just go to hell and fry? What is the hope for them, who right now do not feel like they have been chosen? Explain to me how you can go out there and meet unbelievers, give them that speech, and then tell them that if they do not feel saved or if they are not hit in the face by spiritual emotions, then what is the chance for them to find Christ? They cannot chose Christ, according to what you are saying, but then again, Christ did not impose himself on them, if he could, everybody would believe, no? Does Christ deliberately elect a few and disregard the rest? No, I do not believe that. I believe unbelievers have the choice to believe or not believe, as much as believers also have the choice between continuing to believe, day after day, till the end, or stray away like the lost sheep until they either return or never return.

What is your problem with man's free will, Michelle, anyway? Why is it so hard to think that maybe you have a say in what happens to you?

Corinne

 

[Phillip]

This is turning into a discussion of Calvanism. Although, most of us today say that we are not Calvanists, we just believe in what the Bible says, there are certainly some things the Bible says that we need to think about.

1. If God is omnipotent, then He obviously knows who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost.

2. We see the word "elect" in the Bible. Well, obviously, the word can and does apply to the fact that God already knows. (At least in my opinion.)

3. Another point of Calvanism is that we can do nothing for ourselves towards salvation. As Jonah in the whale, so rightly points out.

Does it do any good to evangelise if God already knows who will be saved? Absolutely:

2 Corinthians 4:
1 THEREFORE SEEING wehave this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in sight of God.
3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost;
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Do we KNOW we are saved, I believe a truly saved person knows it. I lived a lie for many years, having gone to the altar at 9 and doing NOTHING, but living like the devil for many years; knowing well in my heart that I was not saved. Even going as far as asking God to save me, knowing that the faith just was not there. Finally, God broke me down, and I was saved.

Is my name in the book of life? You betcha!

 

[cindig]

Whew...my head is spinning right now. My husband grew up Assembly of God. He was taught that a person could give back their salvation. But I must say I have never talked or known anyone who thinks you can be saved one day and lost the other. What a defeated life, I think it is really sad, I feel sorry for anyone that lives like that. If that isn't relying on yourself I don't know what it is. It is by what you do on any particular day. You will never experience assurance if you depend on your actions. I can't trust the best fifteen minutes I ever lived to get me into heaven. God isn't Santa Claus, making a list and checking it twice to find out who's naughty and nice. He isn't weighing your good works against your bad works. You are dead in your sins if you don't know Christ, and a long list of good works won't balance the scales because we aren't saved by works, buy by grace. He doesn't love you for what you have done,He loves you out of grace. By the way, my husband is Chairman of Deacons at our Southern Baptist church. He searched the scriptures for himself, not what mommy and daddy taught him, it made so much sense to him, he could no longer believe like he was taught.

 

[cindig]

Satan doesn't want you to understand that you are eternally secure. He wants you to think salvation depends on what you do. But that's a trap, because you will always be wondering if you've done enough. Salvation depends not on what you do, but on what God does for you. I'm not going to heaven because I have been such a good person, but because of God's grace. Some people confuse this, thinking that their actions somehow contribute to salvation. This is dead wrong. "And if by grace, then it is no more of workstherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more gracetherwise work is no more work," Paul says in Romans 11:6. Salvation is not part grace and part works. It is all grace. When you put your hand in His, confess your sins and admit that you cannot save yourself, you are relying on the grace alone to save you.
Corinne, I don't think you can never fully understand what Christ did for you on the cross, if you can never know that you are saved and on your way to heaven. I know it is absolutely amazing, it is hard to believe that nothing but faith is required of us. You are trying to bring what Christ did on the cross down to earth and make sense of it. I know you think that to believe you are heaven bound, may make you lax, that is absolutely not true. It is quite the opposite. If we are truly saved, we will strive to be like Christ, we will try and please him. If you think to believe your salvation is secure would make a person live as they please, well, I would have a hard time believing they were ever saved in the first place. I put all of my stock in the Cross, not what I can or can't do.
WOW....not even know daily where I would be going, amazing. My God is bigger than that. I am SEALED, I have EVERLASTING

 

[cindig]

WOOPS, I hit the button before I was finished. End of sentence is suppose to be LIFE. I don't think that says I need to be saved daily.
God Bless,
<{{{><

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by cindig:
By the way, my husband is Chairman of Deacons at our Southern Baptist church. He searched the scriptures for himself, not what mommy and daddy taught him, it made so much sense to him, he could no longer believe like he was taught.

This is exactly one of the reasons that many Baptists are against socialising too much with the "Assemblies of God" and a lot of non-demoninational churches that believe the same way.

As a Southern Baptist, we believe that when a person is saved, they have eternal life from that moment forward. Not, "May have eternal life, if you don't do bad things."

Again, think about the person who is a good Christian, saved and growing in Christ. He is in a car wreck where his main memory is wiped out? Is he still a Christian although he doesn't remember being one and starts living like the devil?

If this is so, can other factors in a persons life cause them to go off balance and cause bad crimes? Can a Christian do this? I would say, yes, they could, unlikely, but they could.

Again, you set the record straight. God does not have scales where He is weighing our sins vs. our good deeds. We are sinners from the beginning. As long as we live in the flesh, we will still sin. Read Paul, where he says he does things he does not want to do because he is still in the flesh.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." It doesn't say they "shall have everlasting life, as long as they don't commit X number of sins." There are NO other conditions added to "shall have everlasting life." PERIOD.

 

[Susie]

Once you are truly saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your personel savior no one can ever take this away from you . Ephesians 4:4 says There is one body one spirit just as you were called in one hope of your calling . One Lord one faith one baptism .One God and father of all ,who is above all and through all and in you all. John 3:5 says unless one is born of water and the spirit he cant enter the kingdom of God. You must be born again. The Lord said ONE not 5 or 6 . In John the 13 chapter Simon Peter asked the Lord do I need not wash my feet only but also my hands and my head . Jesus said he who is bathed needs only to wash his feet but is completley clean and you are clean but not all of you. You are not all clean. In verse 10 the Lord was saying he who is saved needs only to repent daily and ask for forgivness so you want get out of fellowship with God. Washing is a symbol of spiritual cleansing. Jesus told him he need not a bath he only needed Jesus to wash his feet that were dusty from the road .This is a symbol A believer has already been cleansed he are she only needs the cleansing of daily sins that comes threw confession . Once you are saved your allways saved you need to go back daily and repent of your sins daily. Jesus said we must be born again not 5 or 6 times you can truly only be born again when you accept Jesus Christ as you personel savior.

 

[Susie]

God and Jesus are one. John 10:29 -30 My father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of my fathers hand .I and my father are one. Thank you for this Jesus.

 

[Phillip]

Another thought. If we could fall away from salvation would it not be necessary for Jesus to die a second time for our sins to recover our salvation?

 

[michelle]

Susie,


I really liked your analogy of Jesus Christ washing the feet of his disciples in comparison to continual repentance from our sins in our walk. I had never heard this before, and never focused on it/saw it that way before. Thank you. It makes alot of sense.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[bonniej]

I seem once again to be getting in on the tail end of a post but since I'm new, I guess I just have some catching up to do.
If Philip had not already quoted John 3:16, then that's what I was going to do. Since it says everlasting life, then it's just that, everlasting. I believe if we had to be saved over and over again, then Jesus would have had to die over and over again. He paid for our sins, once, so why would we have to be saved more than once? Sure we sin, oh, do we ever sin, but through His blood we are forgiven if we so desire to be. He doesn't force us but gives us the free choice to accept Him or not accept Him. I can't live this life without my Savior. I don't want to even try to think about trying to live my life without Him. I don't spend the time I should in His word or in prayer but I know he's here with me everyday, every step of the way. I John 1:9 says "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." He forgives, He cleanses and he is faithful and just. He doesn't promise us a rose garden if we accept him - atleast not on this earth, but He does promise to be with us and help us. This is why He sent us the Holy Spirit, to be our helper. I know that some who have doubts about their salvation or think because we are Christians that we think we are better than anyone else. This is not true. If it were, I wouldn't bother to go to church. You see church are for those who need it, those who know they are not perfect, those who know we are not without sin. Sometimes Christians get a bad name because there are those out there that claim Christianity but yet don't even try to live it or they make it seem as though they are better than anyone else. But those who have truly accepted Christ as their Savior, do not mind telling how imperfect they are or what their Savior has done for them. If you have accepted Christ as your Savior but yet you doubt your salvation, then something that I have told people to do, is to write down in your Bible or some place that you can remember where you put it the day/date that you accepted Christ as your Savior and then the next time Satan gives you that doubt, then you get your Bible or your piece of paper out and you show him and tell him to get away from you that this is the day I came to know my Savior. God gives us the assurance we need to know that we are saved. Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not of yourselves it is the gift of God, (9) not as a reult of works, that no man should boast. 1John 5:4 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God in order that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. There are many verses in the Bible to give you the assurance of your salvation. If you are having doubts, get in God's word and read, and read and read some more and pray as you read so that the Holy Spirit can give you that assurance that you need.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.And I give unto them eternal life;and they shall NEVER PERISH,niether shall ANY MAN pluck them out of my hand.My Father ,who gave them to ME,IS GREATER THAN ALL,and NO MAN IS ABLE to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God,By whom ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption.
There are about 60 other references pertaining to eternal security,that's enough to convince me.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.And I give unto them eternal life;and they shall NEVER PERISH,niether shall ANY MAN pluck them out of my hand.My Father ,who gave them to ME,IS GREATER THAN ALL,and NO MAN IS ABLE to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God,By whom ye ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption.
There are about 60 other references pertaining to eternal security,that's enough to convince me.

We certainly agree on this one, POR, thank you for the Ephesians quote, I remembered it, but could not find it. THANKS!