Are People who "used" to be a Christian still saved?

[corinne]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by corinne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
Corinne, with respect, your views on our knowledge of salvation seem more Catholic than Baptist to me.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt, I know a little about the Catholics and I can tell you that if you sin, to them you are damned. Well, tell me, just like you think you are saved even though you are still alive and kicking, do you believe that it is alright to believe that you are damned whatever you do if you sin (they strangely seem to ignore the fact that we are under grace)? I have heard on numerous occasions catholic priest say to young children that if they sinned they would go to hell.

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]I was brought up Catholic so I know something of this myself. As I alluded to in my long post a couple of pages back, the Catholic and Orthodox position on soteriology is very similar to your own - that salvation is something which has to be worked on all the time and can be lost if it is not 'sustained' in that way. It is that concept that is behind the rather threatening quote by the priest to which you refer, and which I heard many a time in various guises in my youth, being educated by priests. In what way, then, do you say that your soteriology differs from the Catholics?

Yours in Christ

Matt </font>[/QUOTE]I do not consider myself out of bounds with most Baptists because I am not entirely convinced by Calvin. Whether General atonement vs. Particular atonement, election vs free will, I would rather be neither, and I feel perfectly fine to be either. Embracing the scriptures, and particularly embracing Jesus's teachings and words as related in the Bible, means I am in fact a little of both.

Calvin believed in Predestination, I have no problem with that, really. It feels quite good to think one might be predestinated to stand next to Christ.

Calvin believed that God desires only the salvation of the elect. Although I personally would like to see everyone saved (because we are all God's children), deep down I know it is not possible. I am not in favour of converting unbelievers, for example, like Catholics are. I think evangelism to the unbelieving masses is a bit of a waste of time, which does not mean that we should not try at times.

Calvin believed that God provides grace only to the elect whereas the catholics believe that God provides grace to all, though not all accept it. My view is that he does provide grace to those who are believers, and that he does withdraw that grace from those who stray away and do not return to him, so I am a bit divided in that one.

Calvin believed that Christ died only for the elect and the Catholics believe that Christ died for all men. I believe that Christ died for all a priori but the end result is that if I am an elect, he effectively died for me and not for those who choose to not believe.

Calvin believed that God predetermines some for hell. There are clearly some evil-reeking people I would not even want to try talking to, much less see in heaven, so yes. I believe there is always the possibility that these people will change but that this possibility is so remote that it is very improbably it will happen.

Calvin believed that The elect include all those born-again whereas the Catholics believe that the elect are those who persevere to the end. As you know I am closer to the catholics on that one, but that does not make me a catholic any more than believing in some Calvinist stuff makes me a Calvinist.

Calvin believed that those in grace (born-again) can't fall away whereas I think that it is possible to freely sin and lose grace.

Calvin believed that the elect are assured of their salvation. I say Yes, but only God knows who they are.

I have never pretended to be a pure Baptist and I am certainly not one. It is simply a denomination I feel close to, for some reason.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Corinne, here's an excerpt from a sermon I preached at my home church on James 2 a few months ago, which neatly sums up the sort of Catholic soteriology in which I was raised:-

"We recently had a well-earned holiday in Croatia and on one of our day trips ventured into Montenegro, which is a very mountainous country, and whilst the coach was winding its way up a particularly scary section of hairpin bends our guide decided to cheer us all up by telling us a joke, which goes like this: a priest and a bus driver die and go to heaven and are met in the usual way by St Peter at the Pearly Gates, where the priest is shocked and horrified to hear that he is to be sent to Hell whereas the bus driver is to be admitted to Heaven, and he protests at this news. St Peter replies “Ah, my son, you see when you were praying in church everyone else there was sleeping, but when this bus driver was doing his job, all his passengers were praying!”

And that is really similar to the question raised by this passage from the Letter of James – which is more important, your faith or your actions? Scholars and theologians, often from different sides of the Reformation fence, have traditionally portrayed the issue like this: in the red corner, we have Paul, arguing consistently for justification by faith alone ; in the blue corner, here’s James, arguing salvation by works. But I do not believe that the message of this passage is at all at odds with Paul’s teaching on the subject; it does however contain a wake-up call for all who would desire to be true Jesus-followers.

Broadly speaking, there are two errors into which Christians can fall with regard to the salvation and associated issues such as grace. The first is the legalistic, works-based error in which I was brought up. I was raised and educated in a Catholic environment; at the age of ten I went to a Catholic independent school in Farnborough which was run by priests who were, shall I say, a bit odd. For instance, we had for Latin this guy called Father Bourne, who was outwardly quite normal but prone to sudden and irrational outbursts of temper. He was also the spitting image of the wrestler Big Daddy, so quite a scary bloke. One of the more frightening moments would be when his huge hands would plonk down on your desk, his face loom up in front of you and he would utter the words “Well, boy, conjugate the verb laborare .” Happy days….

Anyway, the theory of salvation that these guys taught was something like represented by this: you’re born in original sin, and then when you’re a few weeks old, you get baptised, which saves you. So you get a good start, but you can lose your salvation by doing bad things, particularly serious sins such as sexual sins, which can drop you under the 'salvation' bar. But help is at hand, because you can go to confession and get your sins forgiven by a priest, which takes you back up again. But you also need to go to communion or Mass at regularly (at least once a week) to ‘feed’ your salvation otherwise, even if you aren’t particularly bad, you begin to slip again. And so you go on, mostly above the bar, but always a bit worried that you’re not making the grade.

Now, no prizes for guessing that all of us think that model is wrong. The classic evangelical model is: you are born into sin and without Jesus you remain below the bar. But as soon as you acknowledge your sins, believe that He died to take the punishment for those sins, and ask Him to be Lord and Saviour of your life, which means repenting of your sins, trusting in Jesus to save you from them and agreeing to follow Him, you are saved. There are fluctuations as you can see, which I will explain in a minute, but the bottom line you don’t go below the bottom line of salvation.

However, many Christians live their lives, often unconsciously, as if they were still in legalism. They pay lip service to the idea that they are saved freely by grace but still live as if it has to be somehow earned. Like the Unforgiving Debtor in Matt 18, they think they have to keep on working at their salvation and make demands on themselves to do so. They become very legalistic, and their faith becomes too much a matter of what they do or do not do, and less a matter of who they are in Christ.That is the first error.

The second trap into which Christians fall is at the other end of the spectrum: to think that it doesn’t matter where you are above the 'salvation-line', that it doesn’t matter what you do, how often or not you pray, meet with other Christians, do God’s will etc, and this manner of licence is just as wrong as the legalism referred to earlier. Grace is free, but not cheap, and licentious behaviour cheapens grace. Tonight’s Scripture I believe addresses that problem on two levels: firstly, if you profess to love someone, you would expect to communicate with them and do things to please them on a regular basis and, secondly and more drastically, if you don’t, James is saying that he is actually doubting that you are saved, because a saved person would do those things . For instance, I got married to Sarah by saying a few words and signing a piece of paper – in the eyes of the law, we were married. But if I never spoke to her, spent any time with her or did things to please her, people would doubt that we were actually married - and certainly Sarah would! Similarly, if all you do is pray a prayer of repentance, but then never spend any time with God, never try to seek and do His Will, then I would doubt your sincerity in praying the prayer in the first place. It is important to aim as high above the bar as possible in developing and maintaining our relationship with the Lord, and this should flow naturally from the fact of our salvation.

So, James isn’t really in conflict with Paul; he is saying, in effect that, having been saved by grace through faith alone, that salvation should evidence itself in how we live our lives, both to demonstrate our salvation and also to develop our walk with God. Salvation is the beginning, not the end of the story, and we would do well to remember that; James provides such a reminder for us."

Now, compare the Catholic view of salvation with your own, and I believe you'll have a better idea of what I was driving at when I compared your soteriology to that of the Catholic Church.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt, I go by what Jesus says himself in the Bible, I don't go by how denominations characterize themselves to believe what I do. I read the Bible, especially what Jesus himself said, and I make my own mind up. Then I listen to people around me and sometimes somebody says something which interests me and makes me dig further, allowing my faith to go stronger and evolve. I have always believed, as far as I can remember as a child, therefore I do not know what it means to be "born-again", I was born with this natural feeling that there is a God and as soon as I was able to put a name on people I knew who Christ was, God and the Son of God. He did not impose himself on me, he was already there. He has always been there for me, even when I encountered forces of darkness, which we defeated together. I can feel in my heart that I am a chosen one, I just want to remain humble and not seem too arrogant about my "elected " status. I have total confidence in Christ and his support. I try to live as he commands, one day after another, because I know he will look after tomorrow so that when tomorrow comes, and I ask him for his blessing, he will already be there waiting for me.

Corinne

 

[michelle]

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You and I both agree. We are saved. But we are saved as long as we are believers, right? What would happen if you were to stray away and blaspheme against God or totally ignore Christ upon his return (imagine, it will happen to some who will witness the second coming)? Would you still be saved (against your will) then? If you are not a believer anymore, no way can you go on being saved.
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As I have said before, and as the scriptures also declare, that what you say in the above quote is an IMPOSSIBILITY of a saved person. It is not an impossibility however for one who is not saved, or only thinks that they are. If you are saved, NOTHING CAN PLUCK YOU OUT OF YOUR FATHERS HAND. You have made free will and other things MORE POWERFUL than God, and as a result not only boast in your salvation, but in your walk afterward also. There is a reason why we give back to the Lord the crowns of rewards he has given unto us. Do you know why?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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You and I both agree. We are saved. But we are saved as long as we are believers, right? What would happen if you were to stray away and blaspheme against God or totally ignore Christ upon his return (imagine, it will happen to some who will witness the second coming)? Would you still be saved (against your will) then? If you are not a believer anymore, no way can you go on being saved.
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As I have said before, and as the scriptures also declare, that what you say in the above quote is an IMPOSSIBILITY of a saved person. It is not an impossibility however for one who is not saved, or only thinks that they are. If you are saved, NOTHING CAN PLUCK YOU OUT OF YOUR FATHERS HAND. You have made free will and other things MORE POWERFUL than God, and as a result not only boast in your salvation, but in your walk afterward also. There is a reason why we give back to the Lord the crowns of rewards he has given unto us. Do you know why?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, you are the one boasting of your salvation, boasting that you are a chosen one. Good for you if you think you are better than most people, including better than millions of Christians who are not Calvinists. Like you they believe in Christ, you could at the very least try to understand the point of view.

Whatever you think you are, chosen one or not, it will not be up to you to decide, but up to God. Let him do the chosing of his chosen one, and if you are part of the lot, then rejoice. I find your view on salvation a little too premature. That is my view and you should respect it like I respect your view that you believe you are a chosen one. Whether you are or not has no incidence over whether I am a chosen one too or not, so either way, we should not care that much. I am only interesting in the thought process.

Corinne

 

[michelle]

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The tragedy would be if people COULD not return to God after straying away. God loves all people, including those who are lost, either by ignorance or by choice. He always hopes that they will return. Some will and some will not.
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God loves those who love him. God hates sin. God saved us, not because of us, but because of his Holy Name and his righteousness. No one deserves salvation, nor God's grace, but because God is a God of love and mercy, and He is perfect in love, He is also perfect in Hate. Do not ever forget this. Our Lord is a jealous God, and a consuming fire. Do not forget this attribute/character of God also. God loves us because of the righteousness of His Son, not because of our righteousness. And just to let you know, not all people in the world are the children of God. Only those who are covered with the lambs blood and have been reborn are the children of God. Once one is saved, God does not disown them, but chastens them as a Father chastens his son. Those who are not yet saved, are not loved by God. They are in direct rebellion and disobediance and unbelief. His will is that they might be saved because God is love, and he continually offers salvation unto them, but he does not love them personally, nor can he until they are saved. Not to mention, God is not a respecter of persons. God loves his creation, but he does not love sin or the children of disobediance, and pleads with them to salvation. God shows us his love through the cross and the sacrifce he made through his Son Jesus Christ.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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But you cannot say, in my opinion, to people who have been born again and then have strayed away, that this is it for them, they cannot return to the Lord. On the contrary you have to go out and fish these people back into the Holy Net, help them believe again.
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Once one is born again, what you say in the quote above is an IMPOSSIBLITY. Go back and read the verse of scripture that Diane posted. This is just one of the many. Once one is caught in the net, it is kept and cleansed. It is not lost and there is no need to re-catch the fish in the net, as the fisherman is the Lord who is casting the net and will bring it onto the boat. The fish is already caught in the net and brought onto the boat if one is truly saved. There is no escape for that fish. If being caught in the net, the fish wiggles out - then that was not a saved fish to begin with. If there was a hole in the net, and it fell out, it was the fault of the net, not the fisherman and not necessarily the fish and not yet brought onto the boat and cleansed, and a new net will be cast out to catch that fish eventually, but that fish was not yet brought onto the boat and cleansed.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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I have always believed, as far as I can remember as a child, therefore I do not know what it means to be "born-again", I was born with this natural feeling that there is a God and as soon as I was able to put a name on people I knew who Christ was, God and the Son of God. He did not impose himself on me, he was already there.
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I always believed in God and Jesus Christ from the time I was a child also. However, I was not saved until I was 30. God called me out. It was not by any man's preaching, but God's word and truth. I had heard the gospel many times throughout my life, but NEVER REPENTED OF MY SINS. I never KNEW the Lord personally. I never understood the cross personally, until that day He showed me. I can remember the day I was saved, and from that point on, I strive continually to please him, and KNOW FOR SURE that I will go to heaven, and that my name is written in the lambs book of life. God has given me this assurance. One I never had previously. It comes with repentance mixed with faith. I must conclude, that if you cannot remember the day the Lord convicted your heart of your sins against him, and your need for his salvation, and your repenting of those sins whole-heartedly and being forgiven of those sins - past, present, future, that you might want to pray about this. I find this above testimony of yours, explains quite well why you believe as you do. You are not yet sure, because you have not yet experienced it. The day the Lord saves the persons wretched soul, one will NEVER FORGET it.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Pete Richert]

I think this classical back and forth is rooted in a misunderstanding of what it means to believe in Christ. I agree with the majority in this thread that once someone is "saved" then will continue to be so until they die. However, it is not a magical "Once saved always saved" but a continued trust in Jesus to save you. The reason the Bible teaches and the reason we can be sure that we WILL continue to trust in Christ is because God is the very one who regenerated us, gave us this trust, and has promised to sustain us til the end.

People who do not believe in Jesus today, no matter what they said in the past, are not saved. Now, from my earlier paragraph you can see I believe they never trusted in Christ in the first place. Usually when I run into these people or read them on the web they say that "accepted Christ" but no longer believe. There is your problem. What is accepting Christ mean anyway? People are saved by trusting Christ to save them for thier sins. I have yet to meet someone who said they used to trust Christ to save them, but now they don't. I would have to ask, what did Jesus do that you no longer believe He can save you? Did He demonstate to you that he wasn't able? If you knew Him well enough to actually DO something for you (as apposed to mental assent to his existence), what happened that you no longer believe He even exists? How can you unknow someone? These people are people who grew up in Christian homes or in a Christian atmosphere, learned about Jesus, "accepted" it or Him, but never actually trusted Christ for their salvation.

 

[Pete Richert]

I must conclude, that if you cannot remember the day the Lord convicted your heart of your sins against him, and your need for his salvation, and your repenting of those sins whole-heartedly and being forgiven of those sins - past, present, future, that you might want to pray about this. I find this above testimony of yours, explains quite well why you believe as you do. You are not yet sure, because you have not yet experienced it. The day the Lord saves the persons wretched soul, one will NEVER FORGET it.

WOW, I couldn't disagree more. I grew up in a Christian home as well, and I don't remember when I first truly believed. Who cares. I am not saved because I did or believed something in the past, I am saved because I trust in Jesus right now. I have assurance because I know, this very second, who my redeemer is. Perhaps you ancedotal experience is different since you admit yourself you never truly believed until you were thirty. Its harder to put a finger on when it developed between the ages of 8 and 10.

 

[corinne]

Michelle,

Baptists consider that in the interpretation of scriptures, every individual enjoys unrestricted freedom, so why is it such a problem for you if I am not as pure a Calvinist as you, if I am more like an Arminianist?

Calvin's God is seen by some (including baptists) as "a tyrant and an executioner". I don't go anywhere as far as that. I find the idea of a predestinated elect people very seducing (although in my view bordering on fanaticism, extremism and fascism), but it is easy to say when you feel you are on the right side of the fence dividing good and evil, damnation and salvation. From other people's point of views, the idea of such a God is not an appealing one and it leads many to stray away (but logically so if you are a Calvinist, since these people would not have been destined to be saved anyway).

Thank God, as Baptists, we have common points, we both agree (I hope we do) in the rejection of infant baptism, and in the acceptance of immersion as the sole valid mode of baptism. Those who CHOOSE to get baptized in this mode see themselves as born again, but they must first accept to be baptized. AS Baptists, you and I believe that in the Eucharist Jesus Christ is not really present (contrary to the Catholics).

I note with comfort that your beloved George Bush and Dick Cheney, who you seem to revere as a model Christians, are both Methodist. I found this on a Methodist site:

"The Necessity of Faith for Salvation

Faith is both a gift of God and a human response to God. It is the ability and willingness to say “yes” to the divine offer of salvation. "

It is obvious that Bush and myself, for once, share something you don't share with us. The belief that faith is not imposed on us, it is a gift of God which we either accept or refuse.

According to what you have been saying to me, obviously you would be saying the same thing to Bush if you could have the same discussion with him. According to your beliefs expressed above also, you clearly could not say that he is not a chosen one. Therefore in your books he has to be a false Christian, someone who thinks he is but is not... or whatever.

What a comfort indeed!

LOL
corinne

 

[Daniel David]

Pete, this reminds me of an exchange between a doctor and a nurse.

D: Nurse, is this man alive.

N: Well, he was born wasn't he.

D: Of course he was, but is he alive right now.

N: Doctor, I told you that he was born wasn't he.

D: Nurse, are you an idiot?! Proof of life isn't that one was born but that he is still living.

I wonder why the Bible places all the emphasis on the fact that people must continue in faith and not on some past event. Actually, I don't.

Being able to point to a time and place means NOTHING. I don't remember the day I was born, but I do know that I am alive today. The same is true for salvation.

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Pete, this reminds me of an exchange between a doctor and a nurse.

D: Nurse, is this man alive.

N: Well, he was born wasn't he.

D: Of course he was, but is he alive right now.

N: Doctor, I told you that he was born wasn't he.

D: Nurse, are you an idiot?! Proof of life isn't that one was born but that he is still living.

I wonder why the Bible places all the emphasis on the fact that people must continue in faith and not on some past event. Actually, I don't.

Being able to point to a time and place means NOTHING. I don't remember the day I was born, but I do know that I am alive today. The same is true for salvation.

Makes two of us. Today, in view of our belief in Christ we are both alive and saved. I see no reason for tomorrow to be different, even if I believe that the possibility to stray away is there it does not mean that we have to stray.

Corinne

 

[AVL1984]

So, in the opinion of David Daniel and Corinne, the Bible says we must be born again and again and again....am I reading you right?

 

[Matt Black]

Exactly right, Pete and Daniel! Some people become Christians by encountering the Risen Lord dramatically on the road to Damascus, others more gradually on the road to Emmaus. The point is that you arrive at the destination - faith and life in Christ - not the road travelled.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Pete Richert]

That is a pretty good analogy DD. Oh, BTW, congradulations on the birth of Grace Anna (just read the thread). Grace in the middle name of my first girl.

 

[michelle]

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Michelle, you are the one boasting of your salvation, boasting that you are a chosen one. Good for you if you think you are better than most people, including better than millions of Christians who are not Calvinists. Like you they believe in Christ, you could at the very least try to understand the point of view.
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You are confusing my belief as being Calvinisitic, to which it is not. I am close to their beliefs in most things, but coming to their belief that God has destined some to hell, and some to life eternal I do not agree. I believe that God has foreknowledge of those who will be saved, and those who will not, but that is not for us to know. Only for God to know. I do recognize that some will and do reject the Lord, and ignore and reject what God has put in them to know and therefore are without excuse. Others do not. I do believe God offers salvation to all who will come - all who listen to his voice. Some ignore his voice, and become hardened to it overtime, and do not hear his voice as strong and clear as they once had. Others hear his voice, even some at the point where their hearts are almost hardened. Once a persons heart is hardened to the voice of the Lord, they are doomed. Calvins believe that God has destined this to happen. I believe it is rather God already knows. I do not believe that God is forceful. He is rather enticing and always there, and many out of their heart and faith recognize his goodness, his truth and his righteousness, and thier sins against him, and others ignore it or put it off. They recognize it, but do not like it, and choose to ignore it. They have pleasure in sin and unrighteousness, rather than righteousness. I was not always an elect, or chosen of God. I only became elect and chosen of God upon my salvation. As the Lord has said, many are called, but few are chosen. Many are called continually by God to repent and be saved, but few listen. Many ignore this calling, and learn to "tune out" the voice of the Lord speaking to them. Just as a husband overtime, learns to "tune out" his nagging wife, or the mother learns to "tune out" the fighting of her siblings. We learn to "tune out" many things that are bothersome to us, that we do not desire to face, and this is exactly what many people do and are doing with the truth about Jesus Christ and HIS gift of salvation.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
So, in the opinion of David Daniel and Corinne, the Bible says we must be born again and again and again....am I reading you right?

No, you are not reading me right.

Salvation does not begin AND end with justification.

Biblical portrait of salvation:

1. Justification (Saved from the penalty of sin): point in time declaration of righteousness by God to the believing sinner.

2. Sanctification (being saved from the presense of sin): continued from justification, it is the continual faith in the person and work of Christ.

3. Glorification (will be saved ultimately from the entirety of sin and its consequenses): the complete undoing of sin and its effects by the complete renewal of the immaterial and material aspects of the person.

Saved - justification
Being saved - sanctification
Will be saved - glorification

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Exactly right, Pete and Daniel! Some people become Christians by encountering the Risen Lord dramatically on the road to Damascus, others more gradually on the road to Emmaus. The point is that you arrive at the destination - faith and life in Christ - not the road travelled.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt, I don't think you understood me either. Salvation does in fact include being justified (born again). It really is a moment in time experience. However, salvation is more than that. See my latest post prior to this one.

 

[Daniel David]

Thanks Pete. Btw, the only way the arranged marriages between our kids will work is if you have a boy now.

 

[AVL1984]

So basically you're adding works to your salvation as a condition, Daniel David? I thought salvation was by grace through faith...a gift of God? Our salvation is not dependent upon us, though if we are saved, I believe we will show fruit of same. I do not believe my backslidden brethren, though, have lost their salvation. I believe they will give an account of their backslidden state, just as we all will give an account for what we do in our bodies after salvation.