GraceSaves
New Member
No, our church is founded on the faith of Peter IN the person of Jesus Christ. Don't seperate what cannot be seperated.
God bless,
Grant
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God bless,
Grant
No, our church is founded on the faith of Peter IN the person of Jesus Christ. Don't
seperate what cannot be seperated.
Leave Peter out of the foundation of my faith and I still have the fullness of my faith.
Take Peter out of the foundation of Catholicism and the Catholic would feel that he suffered loss.
And you say your faith is in Jesus Only ...?
seperate what cannot be seperated.
Leave Peter out of the foundation of my faith and I still have the fullness of my faith.
Take Peter out of the foundation of Catholicism and the Catholic would feel that he suffered loss.
And you say your faith is in Jesus Only ...?
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Helen,
Your post, which states, "Well, Carson, that explains it. We belong to different churches. Yours is founded on the faith of Peter. Mine is founded on the person of Jesus Christ. Your rock is Peter, and mine is Jesus. No wonder there are so many differences!"
is not only condescending, but it fails to respond to my original reply to you concerning the Deuterocanonical portion of Sacred Scripture.
I hope and pray that you will address me and others with the respect and love that is fitting between Christian brothers and sisters. I also urge you to seriously consider the intellectual implications of my original reply concerning the Deuterocanonicals in your honest evaluation of the positions.
God bless you,
Carson
[ October 24, 2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
Your post, which states, "Well, Carson, that explains it. We belong to different churches. Yours is founded on the faith of Peter. Mine is founded on the person of Jesus Christ. Your rock is Peter, and mine is Jesus. No wonder there are so many differences!"
is not only condescending, but it fails to respond to my original reply to you concerning the Deuterocanonical portion of Sacred Scripture.
I hope and pray that you will address me and others with the respect and love that is fitting between Christian brothers and sisters. I also urge you to seriously consider the intellectual implications of my original reply concerning the Deuterocanonicals in your honest evaluation of the positions.
God bless you,
Carson
[ October 24, 2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
GraceSaves
New Member
Yes, why don't we play the game of "what-ifs that can never happen." I didn't chose the method of instituting the Church. Christ did. You can "what-if" all day long, and it won't change an ounce of history.
Second, no one said "Peter is the foundation of my/your faith." Peter is the rock on which Christ built His Church. It is Protestants who generally construe this message to mean the Christ built the Church on the faith of Peter, and not Peter himself. Looks like you're arm wrestling yourself.
Yes, and what if the world was really flat? Oh, it's not? I guess there's really no point in hypothesizing about things that never happened and never were.
You're word games have more holes that swiss cheese. Read above. My faith is in the risen Lord, Jesus Christ, who died for my sins and rose so that I might have life.
Quite frankly, you're the one making something out of Peter that he is not, not me.
God bless,
Grant
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi John,
No apology is necessary, but thank you for your humble response.
I would like to make another clarification. When I say "holy hour" (that of which I invite you to), I do not mean "Mass". A holy hour is when you visit the Eucharist exposed in a monstrance upon an altar for one full hour. This time can be spent in lectio divina (slowly reading and praying over the Word of God, i.e. the Bible), engaging in Spiritual reading, praying before our Lord, or simply sitting and basking in his ineffable presence.
Usually, very committed Catholics have one "holy hour" that they fit into their schedule every week. Some friends of mine make one every day, which I can only admire.
Eucharistic adoration, engaged in with faith, produces amazing fruits in the Christian life. The two most recent examples I can propose are Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II (who writes his apostolic exhortations, letters, and encyclicals before the Blessed Sacrament).
God bless,
Carson
[ October 24, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
No apology is necessary, but thank you for your humble response.
I would like to make another clarification. When I say "holy hour" (that of which I invite you to), I do not mean "Mass". A holy hour is when you visit the Eucharist exposed in a monstrance upon an altar for one full hour. This time can be spent in lectio divina (slowly reading and praying over the Word of God, i.e. the Bible), engaging in Spiritual reading, praying before our Lord, or simply sitting and basking in his ineffable presence.
Usually, very committed Catholics have one "holy hour" that they fit into their schedule every week. Some friends of mine make one every day, which I can only admire.
Eucharistic adoration, engaged in with faith, produces amazing fruits in the Christian life. The two most recent examples I can propose are Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II (who writes his apostolic exhortations, letters, and encyclicals before the Blessed Sacrament).
God bless,
Carson
[ October 24, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
This thread has strayed from the original question about why one group believe their scriptures are superior to the other.
I will give it a few more posts to get back on line. If it does not, I will close the thread.
Thanks to every contributor.
Cheers,
Jim.
moderator
I will give it a few more posts to get back on line. If it does not, I will close the thread.
Thanks to every contributor.
Cheers,
Jim.
moderator
Topic: Protestant claims regarding Scripture superior..?
Protestant claims will be attacked by Catholic claims and that seems to be where we are at. Vice Versa also. I grew up in (and left) what is considered by some to be a cult and I have little respect for denominations that claim exclusiveness as they did. I find it in the attitude of Apologetic Catholics to a large degree. On the other hand; to those Catholics who trust in God's grace through faith in a risen savior for their salvation have my greatest admiration. Afterall that is the Good News that we as believers are commissioned to "Go and tell". The good news was not the setting up of a fallible organization operated by fallible people to tell of a fallible system. (RCC)
Yes, why don't we play the game of "what-ifs that can never happen." I didn't chose the method of instituting the Church. Christ did. You can "what-if" all day long, and it won't change an ounce of history.
I didn't say "What if" my friend. I only said that Peter can be left out of the foundation of my faith and I'll still have faith. It must grieve God deeply to see certain people demeaning His greatest act of sacrificing Himself for salvation "to those who will believe" and have them credit this act to one man, Peter; and the system that was built upon that fallacy. (When history is understood wrong, it is preached wrong).
Second, no one said "Peter is the foundation of my/your faith." Peter is the rock on which
Christ built His Church. It is Protestants who generally construe this message to mean the Christ built the Church on the faith of Peter, and not Peter himself. Looks like you're arm
wrestling yourself.
For a person who has hopes of an earthly kingdom, the Peter story has much merit and can gain many followers. Jesus wasn't even speaking of Peter when he said "Upon this rock....etc." He was speaking of Himself and the foundation He provided that "through faith" in that foundation, we might have eternal life.
You're word games have more holes that swiss cheese. Read above. My faith is in the risen Lord, Jesus Christ, who died for my sins and rose so that I might have life.
I'm glad your faith is rightfully directed as I also claim that of myself. What could we possibly add to that to increase its power...? Surely not works, or more books to the bible, or thoughts concerning the bread and wine or membership in the RCC. (Our righteousness is as filthy rags) !!!
In Christ..........
Protestant claims will be attacked by Catholic claims and that seems to be where we are at. Vice Versa also. I grew up in (and left) what is considered by some to be a cult and I have little respect for denominations that claim exclusiveness as they did. I find it in the attitude of Apologetic Catholics to a large degree. On the other hand; to those Catholics who trust in God's grace through faith in a risen savior for their salvation have my greatest admiration. Afterall that is the Good News that we as believers are commissioned to "Go and tell". The good news was not the setting up of a fallible organization operated by fallible people to tell of a fallible system. (RCC)
Yes, why don't we play the game of "what-ifs that can never happen." I didn't chose the method of instituting the Church. Christ did. You can "what-if" all day long, and it won't change an ounce of history.
I didn't say "What if" my friend. I only said that Peter can be left out of the foundation of my faith and I'll still have faith. It must grieve God deeply to see certain people demeaning His greatest act of sacrificing Himself for salvation "to those who will believe" and have them credit this act to one man, Peter; and the system that was built upon that fallacy. (When history is understood wrong, it is preached wrong).
Second, no one said "Peter is the foundation of my/your faith." Peter is the rock on which
Christ built His Church. It is Protestants who generally construe this message to mean the Christ built the Church on the faith of Peter, and not Peter himself. Looks like you're arm
wrestling yourself.
For a person who has hopes of an earthly kingdom, the Peter story has much merit and can gain many followers. Jesus wasn't even speaking of Peter when he said "Upon this rock....etc." He was speaking of Himself and the foundation He provided that "through faith" in that foundation, we might have eternal life.
You're word games have more holes that swiss cheese. Read above. My faith is in the risen Lord, Jesus Christ, who died for my sins and rose so that I might have life.
I'm glad your faith is rightfully directed as I also claim that of myself. What could we possibly add to that to increase its power...? Surely not works, or more books to the bible, or thoughts concerning the bread and wine or membership in the RCC. (Our righteousness is as filthy rags) !!!
In Christ..........
Interesting article regarding RC and Baptist dialogue...
Krispy Kreme Catholics & the Baptist Vatican
By Terry Mattingly
NASHVILLE -- As a boy in upstate New York, Father Bob Dalton learned
how to talk to Italians, Poles, Ukrainians and various other kinds of
neighbors.
"My Irish mother was always saying, 'They're just not our kind of
people,' " said the 68-year-old priest, hinting at her accent. "But,
you know, we learned to get along. ... It helped that almost everybody
was Catholic."
Before long, Dalton became a priest in the Glenmary Home Mission
Society, which works across the rural South. This meant learning a
whole different cultural vocabulary. It meant learning how to talk to
Southern Baptists.
By the early 1980s, Dalton was representing the Church of Rome at
Southern Baptist Convention's annual meetings and in the hallways of
the giant "Baptist Vatican" in downtown Nashville. He has talked to
Southern Baptists in state conventions and regional associations, too.
He has talked to Southern Baptists at the all-important level of the
local church.
And this is what he has learned.
"Catholics and Baptists have a lot in common," said Dalton, who
recently returned to his SBC liaison role. "But we're still looking at
each other and saying, 'They're just not our kind of people.' ... We're
two massive groups of people who still don't know each other."
Recent statistics gathered by the Glenmary Research Center found 62
million U.S. Catholics and 20 million Southern Baptists -- the nation's
two largest flocks. These two culturally conservative giants continue
to grow, but they are not growing closer together.
Official dialogues began three decades ago, with key leadership coming
from "moderate" Baptists who were willing to risk being called
"ecumenists." Progressive Baptists huddled with progressive Catholics,
while Baptist conservatives seethed.
Then conservatives seized control of the SBC and, to the surprise of
many experts, this soon led to an intense, but radically different, era
of Catholic-Baptist work. Liberals howled about right-wing politics,
while "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" and similar efforts found
common ground on issues such as abortion, sexual abstinence and human
rights.
A key 1994 document made news by affirming that Catholics and
evangelicals are "brothers and sisters in Christ" and that both streams
of tradition represent "authentic forms of discipleship." Before long,
powerful SBC voices -- especially in regions heavy in ex-Catholics --
began saying that enough is enough. Southern Baptist leaders recently
shut down the formal dialogue.
What happens next? The bottom line is that many Southern Baptists do
not believe that years of dialogue have produced consensus on issues of
salvation and biblical authority. A growing awareness of the Vatican II
statement that salvation can be found through faith in non-Christian
religions has only widened the gap.
One of the SBC's most outspoken scholars did not mince words on CNN's
Larry King Show.
"I believe the Roman Church is a false church and teaches a false
gospel," said R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of Southern Baptist
Theological Seminary. "Indeed, I believe the pope himself holds a false
and unbiblical office."
Clearly, SBC leaders realize "that those are fighting words," said
Dalton.
The irony, said the priest, is that the lives of most Roman Catholics
today are not radically different from those of Southern Baptists.
The Glenmary statistics show that waves of Catholics have moved to the
Sunbelt, far from the northern ethnic enclaves of the past. They live
in sprawling suburbs and eat Krispy Kremes at church coffee hour like
everybody else. They live next door to Southern Baptists, who long ago
shed their rural roots and went suburban.
But many Catholics and Baptists have not realized how much times have
changed, said Dalton. They still do not know how to talk to their
neighbors.
"Maybe the formal dialogue did its thing," said Dalton. "It got us
talking to the Baptist left and then we learned to talk to the Baptist
right. But the next level of dialogue will not occur with our leaders
sitting in conference rooms. It's going to have to happen between
ordinary people over their backyard fences and down at the local Home
Depot.
"We're living next door to each other. The question is whether we can
learn to trust each other. Can we ever learn to see that we are one in
Jesus Christ?"
Terry Mattingly (www.tmatt.net) teaches at Palm Beach Atlantic
University and is senior fellow for journalism at the Council for
Christian Colleges & Universities. He writes this weekly column for the
Scripps Howard News Service.
Krispy Kreme Catholics & the Baptist Vatican
By Terry Mattingly
NASHVILLE -- As a boy in upstate New York, Father Bob Dalton learned
how to talk to Italians, Poles, Ukrainians and various other kinds of
neighbors.
"My Irish mother was always saying, 'They're just not our kind of
people,' " said the 68-year-old priest, hinting at her accent. "But,
you know, we learned to get along. ... It helped that almost everybody
was Catholic."
Before long, Dalton became a priest in the Glenmary Home Mission
Society, which works across the rural South. This meant learning a
whole different cultural vocabulary. It meant learning how to talk to
Southern Baptists.
By the early 1980s, Dalton was representing the Church of Rome at
Southern Baptist Convention's annual meetings and in the hallways of
the giant "Baptist Vatican" in downtown Nashville. He has talked to
Southern Baptists in state conventions and regional associations, too.
He has talked to Southern Baptists at the all-important level of the
local church.
And this is what he has learned.
"Catholics and Baptists have a lot in common," said Dalton, who
recently returned to his SBC liaison role. "But we're still looking at
each other and saying, 'They're just not our kind of people.' ... We're
two massive groups of people who still don't know each other."
Recent statistics gathered by the Glenmary Research Center found 62
million U.S. Catholics and 20 million Southern Baptists -- the nation's
two largest flocks. These two culturally conservative giants continue
to grow, but they are not growing closer together.
Official dialogues began three decades ago, with key leadership coming
from "moderate" Baptists who were willing to risk being called
"ecumenists." Progressive Baptists huddled with progressive Catholics,
while Baptist conservatives seethed.
Then conservatives seized control of the SBC and, to the surprise of
many experts, this soon led to an intense, but radically different, era
of Catholic-Baptist work. Liberals howled about right-wing politics,
while "Evangelicals and Catholics Together" and similar efforts found
common ground on issues such as abortion, sexual abstinence and human
rights.
A key 1994 document made news by affirming that Catholics and
evangelicals are "brothers and sisters in Christ" and that both streams
of tradition represent "authentic forms of discipleship." Before long,
powerful SBC voices -- especially in regions heavy in ex-Catholics --
began saying that enough is enough. Southern Baptist leaders recently
shut down the formal dialogue.
What happens next? The bottom line is that many Southern Baptists do
not believe that years of dialogue have produced consensus on issues of
salvation and biblical authority. A growing awareness of the Vatican II
statement that salvation can be found through faith in non-Christian
religions has only widened the gap.
One of the SBC's most outspoken scholars did not mince words on CNN's
Larry King Show.
"I believe the Roman Church is a false church and teaches a false
gospel," said R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of Southern Baptist
Theological Seminary. "Indeed, I believe the pope himself holds a false
and unbiblical office."
Clearly, SBC leaders realize "that those are fighting words," said
Dalton.
The irony, said the priest, is that the lives of most Roman Catholics
today are not radically different from those of Southern Baptists.
The Glenmary statistics show that waves of Catholics have moved to the
Sunbelt, far from the northern ethnic enclaves of the past. They live
in sprawling suburbs and eat Krispy Kremes at church coffee hour like
everybody else. They live next door to Southern Baptists, who long ago
shed their rural roots and went suburban.
But many Catholics and Baptists have not realized how much times have
changed, said Dalton. They still do not know how to talk to their
neighbors.
"Maybe the formal dialogue did its thing," said Dalton. "It got us
talking to the Baptist left and then we learned to talk to the Baptist
right. But the next level of dialogue will not occur with our leaders
sitting in conference rooms. It's going to have to happen between
ordinary people over their backyard fences and down at the local Home
Depot.
"We're living next door to each other. The question is whether we can
learn to trust each other. Can we ever learn to see that we are one in
Jesus Christ?"
Terry Mattingly (www.tmatt.net) teaches at Palm Beach Atlantic
University and is senior fellow for journalism at the Council for
Christian Colleges & Universities. He writes this weekly column for the
Scripps Howard News Service.
J
jimraboin
Guest
It is amazing to me how hard Catholic representatives try to promote their version of Scriptures while at the same time equally hard ignore legitimate questions.
This is the third time I have asked Carson to explain himself regarding deuteros, Israel's central authority and their group of Scriptures. Your continued silence proves to me that you do not know what you so confidently proclaim.
Protestant's have a much better proof of their Scriptures than relying upon Catholic first four Council's.
Jim
This is the third time I have asked Carson to explain himself regarding deuteros, Israel's central authority and their group of Scriptures. Your continued silence proves to me that you do not know what you so confidently proclaim.
Protestant's have a much better proof of their Scriptures than relying upon Catholic first four Council's.
Jim
Today we were driving down the road with our children and we looked in passing at a HUGE Catholic schoool. Our kids asked us who the Catholics serve? I was about to reply, and our 15 yr old said, Oh they worship Mary. My husband added his bit and said, well actually, they worship the same God as we do!
Silence in the back seat of the car!!!!
Then .. well, how come there is so much fighting in Ireland between Catholics and "us" (he meant Protestants) if they are all worshipping the same God??
The 10 year old remarked in general, wow, I bet God hates all the fighting!
Thought this was an interesting conversation
Silence in the back seat of the car!!!!
Then .. well, how come there is so much fighting in Ireland between Catholics and "us" (he meant Protestants) if they are all worshipping the same God??
The 10 year old remarked in general, wow, I bet God hates all the fighting!
Thought this was an interesting conversation
J
jimraboin
Guest
Hi Singer,
Deuteros is slan for "deuterocanonicals"....a word Catholic's use for apocrypha.
Help any?
Jim
Deuteros is slan for "deuterocanonicals"....a word Catholic's use for apocrypha.
Help any?
Jim